Sleeping cold

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blacka01
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Sleeping cold

Post by blacka01 »

Hi everyone, first time poster here. Long time lurker though, trying to absorb the bikepacking wisdom of the Bearbones gurus. I have been doing a bit of bikepacking on and off (only when the weather is nice admittedly – such a wimp) for the past year or so. Starting off with just a big rucksack, what a mistake that was, but gradually building my bike luggage and lightweight gear collection.
I had a nice overnighter on Saturday in the forests north of Copenhagen (currently living in Denmark but originally from N. Ireland). This was a bit of a dry run for a longer (5-6 day) trip I will be doing next week from the Norway/Sweden border down to Gothenburg.
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I was generally pretty happy with how my bike and kit performed. However it got pretty cold during the night, down to about 3 degrees which was a little unexpected. I woke up at about 1am as the temperature dipped and felt quite cold (even after putting on my clothes and a light down jacket) and could not get back to sleep – it was a little uncomfortable. In truth, I am a bit disappointed in the performance of my sleeping bag (Rab Neutrino 400) which has a rated comfort limit down to -3.5 degrees. I know that there are a lot of factors that contribute to keeping warm at night but I’ve always considered myself a warm sleeper - I’m quite a big unit (6'4" and 16 stone) and always have the bedroom window open at night even in the depths of winter for example.
I don't really want to repeat this experience (or worse) in the Swedish wilderness in a couple of weeks, especially given I will be out for 5 or 6 nights. So I thought I would check in here for some advice before forking out north of 300 notes on a Neutrino 600, or similar.
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psling
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by psling »

What mat do you use under the bag? A good 'winter' sleep mat can make a huge difference to comfort at night, especially when you are a big lad (similar weight to me!) and the down underneath you compresses losing a lot of its insulating properties.
Also, do you use a sleeping bag liner? Two benefits - helps to keep you warmer and keeps your bag cleaner.
We go out into the hills to lose ourselves, not to get lost. You are only lost if you need to be somewhere else and if you really need to be somewhere else then you're probably in the wrong place to begin with.
blacka01
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by blacka01 »

I'm using a Neoair Xlite, maybe not up to the job for chilly nights? I do have a silk liner, though I neglected to take it with me last time.
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Matt
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Matt »

Don't wear the down jacket, open it up and use it like an extra blanket. Works much better.
Joshvegas
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Joshvegas »

Get yourself a cheap foam mat.

Give it a try and see if you stay warmer if you do buy a better mat or just continue to use the cheap foam mat cut down to withing an inch of its life.
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benp1
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by benp1 »

Despite running hot most of the time and at bed in home, I'm a cold sleeper outdoors. Very annoying, I'm 6'3 too so my sleep kit always weighs more than a typical weight weenie (longer and warmer)

Lots of food helps (everything!), get warm before bed, dry feet (talc) and thick dry socks, dry clothes, wear extra clothes, buff and hat, always do up the draw cords on your bag

I've not tried opening up insulated clothes because my 2 favourite warm bivy tops are smocks (montane fireball smock and PHD ultra vest)
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

In situations like this, the thought of a new sleeping bag is always appealing but sometimes uprating your existing bag with an extra addition can be cheaper and result in a more usable 'system'. Your bag should have coped with the conditions but as already said, there's lots of factors to consider ... not just how warm is my bag.

If you've implemeted everything mentioned above and are still concerned, then maybe consider buying something to use as an additional over cover / blanket. Given your size, I wouldn't bother trying to fit a liner bag inside your existing one as it's likely to actually make things worse. However, a summer quilt or blanket / comforter (Thermarest make a light synthetic blanket) over the top of your existing bag should make a massive difference.
May the bridges you burn light your way
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Blackhound
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Blackhound »

A lot of good advice above and not a lot to add. A buff / hat does help and I have found my X-Lite being fine and I sleep cold as well so unlikely that is the cause.

I was in that area last summer (got a ferry to Gothenburg and drove North and then East to the coast). Really lovely there so report back on your trip and what trails you found. Would hope to return but the Esjberg ferry has stopped and not sure about driving around North Europe to get there.
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Ray Young
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Ray Young »

I move a lot in bed going from one side to another or turning onto my back. I found that when out biviing if the whole bag turns with me then I would get cold spots due to the compressed down now being uppermost. I now try to keep movement to a minimum and when I do turn I make sure the bag stays still whilst I turn inside it, probably more difficult for you given your size. I'm also in the habit of curling up in bed which I have found is also a no no in a down bag as it compresses the down at your knees and bum. What I really need is a quilt so I could pander to my nocturnal habits without fear of cold spots.
rudedog
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by rudedog »

Some people use a hotwater bottle for when the temps get close to what their gear can handle. Any plastic bottle will probably do for this - just make sure it has a tight fitting lid and wont shrink/melt with hot water. You can wrap it in spare clothes to make the heat last longer.
blacka01
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by blacka01 »

Wow, loads of good advice, thanks so much guys. Lots to try before dropping cash on a warmer bag. I do move around alot at night so I will also try to limit that and move inside the bag as per Ray's suggestion. For the same reason a quilt may well be a sensible purchase.
I was in that area last summer (got a ferry to Gothenburg and drove North and then East to the coast). Really lovely there so report back on your trip and what trails you found. Would hope to return but the Esjberg ferry has stopped and not sure about driving around North Europe to get there
Yes Sweden can be very pretty and the (Scottish style) access laws are a dream. The plan is to (attempt to) ride the Bohusleden hiking trail, good official guide in English here:

http://bohusleden.se/lang/en/ledens_strackning/

And unofficial (but also very good) guide here:

http://cesarandthewoods.blogspot.dk/201 ... ction.html

Yeah, it's unfortunate that the DFDS Harwich - Esbjerg ferry has stopped. However if you are in the North of England / Scotland then the Newcastle - Amsterdam route is almost as efficient, just swapping the big drive from the UK to the Europe side. Or this, though I'm not sure if it's actually going to happen:

http://www.reginaline.dk/index-uk.htm
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ootini
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by ootini »

blacka01 wrote:Wow, loads of good advice, thanks so much guys. Lots to try before dropping cash on a warmer bag. I do move around alot at night so I will also try to limit that and move inside the bag as per Ray's suggestion. For the same reason a quilt may well be a sensible purchase.
I was in that area last summer (got a ferry to Gothenburg and drove North and then East to the coast). Really lovely there so report back on your trip and what trails you found. Would hope to return but the Esjberg ferry has stopped and not sure about driving around North Europe to get there
Yes Sweden can be very pretty and the (Scottish style) access laws are a dream. The plan is to (attempt to) ride the Bohusleden hiking trail, good official guide in English here:

http://bohusleden.se/lang/en/ledens_strackning/

And unofficial (but also very good) guide here:

http://cesarandthewoods.blogspot.dk/201 ... ction.html

Yeah, it's unfortunate that the DFDS Harwich - Esbjerg ferry has stopped. However if you are in the North of England / Scotland then the Newcastle - Amsterdam route is almost as efficient, just swapping the big drive from the UK to the Europe side. Or this, though I'm not sure if it's actually going to happen:

http://www.reginaline.dk/index-uk.htm

This may sound cheeky, but just in case you do decide to go for a warmer bag, I may be interested in taking the Neutrino, if you were going to sell it, obviously dependant on price / condition :)
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Blackhound
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Blackhound »

Will have a read of the trail info, thanks. Hopefully the Regina Line service will happen. Still a long drive from Amsterdam and for me Hull is viable but still a long drive. to Denmark.
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spectraken
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by spectraken »

Here's a link to an article by Andy Kirkpatrick, he's pretty experienced at sleeping in cold temperatures

http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/vi ... ags_warmth
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ootini
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by ootini »

spectraken wrote:Here's a link to an article by Andy Kirkpatrick, he's pretty experienced at sleeping in cold temperatures

http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/vi ... ags_warmth
Really interesting article, I'm not sure about necking olive oil though.
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

May the bridges you burn light your way
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Richard G
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Richard G »

I was like a furnace both nights of this WRT. Starting to reconsider my merino sleeping gear.
LSJ
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by LSJ »

I agree with the above advice. I have bivouacked more than I care to count in Denmark. All year around, in all kinds of weather (army more than 22 years).

I use 3 things, one you might find a joke, but isn't.

Hat, wool or fleece. Use it as a heat regulator. I have mine in the bag, all year around.

Hot meal or drink just before getting in the bag.

Here is the odd advice, but it does the trick. And again, it's not a joke :grin:
Dry feet, a pair of heavy woolen socks (Scandivian thick grey ones) Obviously they go on the feet, but leave a couple of centimeters (an inch for those that are happier with imperial measures), loose of the toes (like when you were a kid and came home after a day out, and took the wellie's of)

Bohusleden is a great trip, but can be very crowded. Add yes the Swedish and Norwegian "allemannsretten" are brilliant. But glad we have more than 3000 shelters and primitive camping sites in Denmark, and a couple of years back, the State forests started to allow camping in designated parts of the forests, by the 1-2-3-rule (1 night, maximum 2 tents in a spot, maximum 3 person tent). The drawback is that Denmark mainly consist of cultivated farmland, wild nature is not what we have a lot of. And not of lot of height meters either, but always a guarantee of winds :cry:

If you need any tips about places in Denmark especially Jutland, don't hesitate to ask.

Lars
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Mariner
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Mariner »

Second the dry warm feet recommendation.
I have some really cheap red acrylic socks with loops on the inside.
But a word of warning you might need to work out a way of taking them off in the middle of the night if your feet get too warm without getting out of your bag or getting cramp or letting all the heat out.
Zazen - nothing happens next this is it.
blacka01
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by blacka01 »

Thanks for the links guys, getting into very technical territory with Mr Kirkpatrick and Stuarts articles! Yeah, I reckon I'll leave the olive oil at home too, though I can't think of a better excuse for a chocolate bar binge :-bd
Bohusleden is a great trip, but can be very crowded
Thanks for the advice Lars, I will bring some woolly socks for sure. I am hoping I will miss the hoards of German hikers (and also the worst of the mosquitoes) by going in May, I have heard it's busiest (for hikers and mozzies) in July / August.
Yes it's a shame Denmark doesn't have more (any!) hills but there are lots of beautiful beech forests to make up for the lack of true wilderness, especially nice at this time of year with the new leaves and wildflowers. And Sweden is just across the bridge, at least if you live in Copenhagen. Which areas would you recommend in Jutland? My trips so far have been limited to Sjælland and Fyn.
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benp1
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by benp1 »

benp1 wrote:dry feet (talc) and thick dry socks
Before you put thick/warm/dry socks on, make sure your feet are properly dry and not in the slightest bit damp or sweaty - talc is great for this

Also, I find going to the effort of warming your feet (as well as getting warm overall) helps massively. Your feet don't really generate any proper heat so warming them first before your socks are on really helps

(I have bad circulation so often get cold feet and cold hands, despite running hot - t shirt and gloves when walking sometimes!)
LSJ
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by LSJ »

Well Fyn actually have a route called alpetramp 125 km, with 2000 m climbing. But mostly for roadies.

http://www.climbs.dk/alpetramp_2006_125_km.htm

As I normally live in the center of Jylland (currently living in Poland though), my preferred spots are on the west coast, especially Thy National Park (the only real nature we have in Denmark in my opinion), and it is a beautiful place.

If you have the time, I'd do as follows. Train to Nyborg, go the southern route on Fyn to MIDDELFART (just wanted to use that name for all the English speakers :grin: )
The after you arrive in Jylland, go with these cities as Directions. Frederecia, Silkeborg, Struer, Thyborøn. At Thyborøn go north, following the Northsea trail http://prod.avinet.no/coastalive/defaul ... 001&lang=1 On the left of the map, tick the boxes for cycling and also the north sea trails. One is part of the national cycel routes. The other is for ramblers (so if you use that, some might look at you with a stinky eye)

You can use this as a general planner http://www.cyclistic.dk/en/ but the wild camping spots are best found here (shelters and national forrests where you can out up tent, or hammock)
Onyhe beaches you can always sleep, but can't use a tent or tentlike constructions (no Tarp rigged). This have been heavily debated on danish outdoors forums, especially kayaking forums. Stupid, yes, do you need to abide by it...naaahhh. Or have a good bivibag.

This is probably the best planning tool you can use. http://udinaturen.naturstyrelsen.dk/udinaturen/ Translates fairly correct into English (if you use chrome browser). Under accomodation, tick small camp and free tent up area. Then you have loads of small green dots on the map, The further you zoom in, it will show what it is. Hover over a place and it will give a short description (if there is water, an outhouse, shelter and so on) Remember to update the map when you zoom in. You can draw routes and export them, and point of interest in to gpx files, or print. When you see darker areas of forests, thats' the part of the forest you can put up tents. To make it easy you can also tick the relevant boxes in routes (hiking, cycling and MTB).

Back on the topic with the socks. Dry feet prefereble. But that's why I mentioned the heavy wool socks. I don't like talc. To much of a mess, and more to carry. Air your feet, dry hem if required, Put on socks as described. Rub them a bit, and of to bed...


Lars
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Blackhound
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Blackhound »

A bit o/t but got an email from Regina Line yesterday to say that the Harwich to Esjberg will be back on from March 2016. Great news for me.

http://www.reginaline.dk/index-uk.htm
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Zippy
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Zippy »

Blackhound wrote:A bit o/t but got an email from Regina Line yesterday to say that the Harwich to Esjberg will be back on from March 2016. Great news for me.

http://www.reginaline.dk/index-uk.htm
Oh super. I work easy cycling distance from Harwich, so was thinking about riding after work on friday, overnight ferry, couple of days on the continent, overnight ferry back sunday night, arrive back at work on monday.
Last time I looked, it was a bit too expensive to warrant the effort :|
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Blackhound
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Re: Sleeping cold

Post by Blackhound »

Probably a bit pricey for a weekend trip. Cost about £300 one way in 2013 in the 'van though foot and bike would be cheaper.
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