Trans Cambrian Way Double?

[pedalhead]

As far as I can tell, the inaugural route record is up for grabs. Moving time means nothing. I mean, the SDD boys wouldn't go for that would they. Just strikes me that this route hasn't been done much so it's all still a bit "informal".

[pedalhead]

Of course, I suppose the one-way time isn't going to be so important anyway...it's the double that'll be the interesting one

[slarge]

Yes, total time of 12 hr 10 is the time to beat. When I did it, it took 13 hours total or so with full bivvy kit, and over 2 hrs was spent not riding (lots of gates, feed stops, shop stop, and a small amount of pushing). It's a great day out in the wilds (I saw 3 people all day, and 1 of those was driving a tractor), but start early as there are very few bail out places if you plan to take a day and don't make it. The double would be quite seriously tough, although I am sure for one of the Dave Buchanan types it would be a Sunday ride!

Nav is a bit of a challenge. There's a small handful of places where it can go wrong, but in the main it's not too difficult. A GPS makes it easier!

One bit to really slow you down is the old road section before the Claerwen Reservoir, which always seems to be waterlogged - if there has been a few dry weeks beforehand it is much more pleasant (the whole route is better if it has been dry for a few weeks before). You can bypass this and use the road, but once you start on the old road it's too late as there's a fast flowing river between old road and proper road. Anyway, the road is cheating!

Good luck to anyone having a go. Somewhere I have a list of water stops (there aren't many taps), but you'll need to carry a few litres as the distance between stops is a few hours riding.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Somewhere I have a list of water stops (there aren't many taps), but you'll need to carry a few litres as the distance between stops is a few hours riding.

I've never been short of drinking water out there

[slarge]

s'pose there is a couple of million litres in those there reservoirs

[Blackhound]

That section before Claerwen we had been warned about so as we were just out for a couple of days riding we went down the road. Forgot that until slarge mentioned it.

It seems I got the wrong 'Dave' last night, apologies and thanks to Ian for being arsed to use Google!

Total elapsed time has to be the record though riding time is of academic interest. Still looks crazy fast to me though.

[Ian]

I agree, total elapsed time is what counts, which this article fails to appreciate. Can't find any records of a double attempt, and going by current recording standards used for things like the SDD, no-one has published details of their time for the single that stands up to external scrutiny. Spot trackers are the way to go, together with a photo of the platform clock at Knighton and Dyfi Junction stations.

If the double is to go in under 24 hours, I'd suggest that the outward leg would need to be done in under 11 hours. Furthermore, I'd want to do it in mid-summer to minimise the night riding and hit Llanbadarn Fynydd just before it got dark so that I had a reasonably straight forward section to do through the night.

[slarge]

Ian,
if you are going to have a crack at the double, it's there for the taking, but you can't mess about, The stopping time adds many many minutes to the overall time (even just the gates etc). You will need to have a dry spell of approx 3 weeks before your attempt to make the going easier (this is what I had 2 years ago, that's why I thought my 13 hour attempt could be repeated without kit to give a sub 12 hour attempt). Plus you will need a plan at the end (but maybe Stu lives close enough to the end to provide that plan) as the trains aren't great and there's no other support. 11 hours 1 way will be tough but if you don't hang about it is possible. If you want some pacemakimg or help with logistics, drop me a line, as I have thought about it many times. My 2012 plan is the Pennine Bridleway (I did half last year in sub 12 hours), but as you have said, without a good GPS log, or SPOT record, any attemp is an unsubstantiated claim (although I think most who go for these attempts do it for their own satisfaction rather than a trophy).

[Bearbonesnorm]

which this article fails to appreciate

It does rather miss the whole point doesn't it.

Now, lets say someone were to have a stab at the double ... would it matter in which direction you were to set off, ie E-W-E or W-E-W? Obviously IMBA have the route running E to W but if you're riding the route back to back, you're going to cover every mile both ways regardless of which direction you set off in.

[pedalhead]

yeah that article is laughable. If it's anything like the SDD (which is well established as a long distance competitive route), the direction of travel for the double shouldn't matter. You can even start in the middle & go back & forth if you like. I would have thought the same rules should apply here. Would also be useful to differentiate singlespeed/geared, and alpine or supported.

[Bearbonesnorm]

If 'Alpine' are we going to do it properly? No shops, no ice cream vans, no nothing ... if you want, you carry it?

[pedalhead]

yup I think by choosing to go "alpine" you're making that decision to finish as you started...can't even throw any rubbish away in a bin as far as I'm aware. Only water can be collected on the move. 24hrs worth of gels etc will weigh a bit!

[slarge]

IMBA say EWE as it is "easier" (about 100m less climbing), but to save the "easier" bit for the return leg could be common sense.

The route is sort of waymarked for EWE, but not the other way (the waymarking is very old painted yellow arrows on gateposts etc, but you have to look to see them, and they are a bit hit and miss).

I suspect that for Stu and a few others, you'll have ridden the vast majority of it before, just not strung it together. An alpine style attempt would be great, and in the true spirit. I might even join you lot (although my only commitment to a singlespeed is to only use one gear at a time).

[Taylor]

Can't remember seeing many, if any, yellow markers when Stu and I had a go two years ago.

[faddyvictor]

There are a few yellow arrows but not enoughto make life easy,there are also a couple of route diversion's
that the old series 1 1:50000 maps supplied by IMBA dont make clear.

[Bearbonesnorm]

that the old series 1 1:50000 maps supplied by IMBA dont make clear.

They don't make much clear ... I think without local / prior knowledge the IMBA maps aren't much use beyond a vague overview

Perhaps I should write a TCW trail guide

[faddyvictor]

I had to get my father in-law's magnifying glass on the dam things,took ages to suss it out but we only had
a couple of wrong turns with the route on a Satmap gps.

[Blackhound]

The yellow markers were there when I did it in October 2008 and I saw some during BB200 as well. As slarge says they are bit random and and hard to see. You can't rely on them but they can confirm you are on the right track. But not seeing them does not mean you are in the wrong place :?

Mebbe a man and a tin of yellow paint is needed out there?

I still plan to have a go this year, but I would be dead chuffed with 24 hours one way.

(Seems I mis-understood the 'alpine' rules - I thought you could buy stuff at shops along the way but no outside support was allowed)

[pedalhead]

I could be wrong about the shop food thing, but I recall reading it somewhere recently. Can't seem to find it now though, and the SDD website doesn't go into detail regarding the rules.

[Ian]

(Seems I mis-understood the 'alpine' rules - I thought you could buy stuff at shops along the way but no outside support was allowed)

Tbh, I think not using any shops etc is a bit daft, if it's available to anyone it should be in. cf CTR or TD rules.

I'd go EWE if I did it; more chance of a tail wind in the return leg. When you've been riding for 12 hours or more, I'm not sure anything feels "easier"...

[bigrobracing]

going by current recording standards used for things like the SDD, no-one has published details of their time for the single that stands up to external scrutiny

I took a GPS on my SDD, but there's an unwritten rule not to publicise single times. Anyone can do a single and it's a case of how fast can it be done, and we all want to discourage hundreds of people racing on a busy public trail. The SDD is a "can I do it" challenge, and is something very different.

Anyway, for an Alpine attempt it's very simple; carry it on, carry it off. The only thing you can collect is water from public taps or any open water source such as streams (but not from public toilets), no pacing by another rider, no-one to open gates or help with navigation. No shops. This is to make it open to anyone at any time, rather than have a "best" time to start to catch the shops and to prevent muddy cyclists who are "racing" upsetting shop owners and other trail users!

However the SDD distinguishes between Alpine and supported rides, for a supported ride you can do what you want except be towed. A supported category is a very good thing as it makes these amazing rides possible for a lot more people with a safety net or with less experience of being outdoors or wanting to cut their food, water & clothes to a bare minimum!

[Ian]

Anyone can do a single and it's a case of how fast can it be done, and we all want to discourage hundreds of people racing on a busy public trail.

For the SDW, that's probably fair enough. For the TCW, it seems only three people have done it against the clock and only in one direction. I'd take the view that the single record is still relevant. TCW is a different kettle of fish to the SDW, being harder and more remote.

With respect to all those SDD riders who have done it "alpine", I still think its an odd approach - we're not in some remote part of the Alps where options for resupply are non-existant, so why apply that to the UK? People can select their start time and pick a suitable weather or season window and achieve higher performance gains than they can by, for example, stopping at the Spar in Rhayader for extra calories vs having carried said calories it all from from Knighton :)

[Bearbonesnorm]

I might be typing this without first properly thinking about what I'm typing ... so apologies in advance if I'm speaking out of turn

It seems that 2012 maybe the 'summer of the TCW' so perhaps we should set our own guidelines that everyone agrees on. Obviously people are free to follow them or not. As a starting point, I've put my suggestions below ... hopefully a concensus will develop. I don't see the same problems exist with the TCW that do with the SDW regarding 1 way runs ... on the TC you'll be pretty lucky to see anyone even at weekends. Potential re-supply points are also very limited, as Ian says, if you believe you'd be better carrying less but losing time re-supplying at a shop that should be your choice ... if it's a facility avaliable to everyone then it's fair game.

1/ Singlespeed and geared are different, any 'results' would be listed as ss or geared.
2/ EWE and WEW are both viable options for a 1 way run but 'results' would state which way.
3/ 'Alpine' allows for re-supply at commercial outlets.
4/ No 'supported' runs. Personally I feel that a supported run would miss the whole point of the ride. I also think supporters would cause more disruption to anyone living near to the route than riding the route itself one way ever could.
5/ Double attempts can be started at either end but there will be no distinction made in 'results'.
6/ Only total elapsed time counts.
7/ Anyone looking for a 'result' must be able to prove their time ... SPOT, GPS, etc.
8/ The entire IMBA route must be follwed for a 'result' to stand.
9/ Solo, pairs, etc times to be listed as different classes.

I'm sure there's plenty of stuff I've missed but it's a start Part of me thinks 'who are you / we to be making rules up' but I do think a set of guidelines could be a useful thing to have in place. I also believe the TCW is a bit of an individual case due to it's location and the fact that it's not a shared access route as many of the long distance routes are, the chances of user conflict are very limited.

Fire away.

[Ian]

Stu, all seems fine to me. Sensible set of rules, not over complicated. You've just got yourself a job as TCW Records Curator: just add those rules to a dedicated page on this very website and you're there :)

The only thing you could add is solo vs duo attempts. JH's record was a solo effort; JM/DP's was not. Duo's have an advantage at gates, head winds, sharing tools etc and pacing in general.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Very good point Ian ... now added to the list as number 9.