Retrogrouching (new XTR content)

[jameso]

Big news of the week on many sites is the the XTR launch. I got as far as this before thinking my stance on bike electronics* was justified

"Shimano conservatively claims over 338 km (210 miles) of riding per charge – a figure based on 38.5 km of riding per week, with 35 shifts a kilometre."

https://escapecollective.com/shimano-xt ... ly-review/

210 miles per charge? I'm not doing 200 miles on an MTB in one go but some do and many will do that in a long weekend. You can charge the battery via USB if you take this with you


While I understand why SRAM and Shimano etc all want to add tech and cost to bikes, they're also losing that customer who reaches tech saturation point and reverses - usually an older rider who still spends good money on bikes if the right kit is available. I like old-school cables, replace them yearly and all's good. Give me XT-XTR-Ultegra-DuraAce level kit that runs on cables for brakes and gears and I'm buying, I guess I'm now firmly in retrogrough-irrelevance thinking now though.

*apart from a dynamo to USB charging system it's a pointless complication

[Valerio]

Agreed, but i think we need to see real-world usage to understand how long it actually lasts.

If I was riding 38km/week I'm not sure I'd buy such an expensive shifter. But that's personal preference.

[redefined_cycles]

I had 2 sets of Dura Ace Di2 setup on my bikes (3 bikes in total as the first got moved over to second bike). Whilst it was enjoyable especially once they'd made the jump to 11 speed and thr newer Di2, I stopped using Di2 (road bike, with about 500+ miles range and easy USB charging) about 3 years ago.

Life is just so much simpler and instead I have focused on moving from rim to disc brakes on the road bike. Next investment on the mtb will be (in electronic terms) a power meter crank arm. But electronic shifting, no thanks.

Used the SRAM equivalent of mtb electronic shifting briefly on testing John's bike a few months ago. My XT/XTR shifting is so much more comfortable and shifts almost as nicely (considering mine is a 5 year old setup and the SRAM was pretty no).

So, electronic shifting, no thanks. Carbon, yes pls (maybe).

[jameso]

I rode SRAM T-type shifting for an afternoon last year so will be interesting to see what the XTR is like in terms of shift speed. SRAM felt slow to me, very deliberate and solid though. I liked Di2 on a road bike (to ride, if not my choice to own). MTBs are more of a tool to do a job and I'd generally go for almost disposable levels of drivetrain parts.
Plus, in the same way that I like single pivot FS bikes that have a bit of chain growth in the design for the way they add some feel to the suspension Vs a very neutral 4-bar design or I like a frame that has a bit of flex when pushed hard Vs something very stiff, I like to feel what's going on when I shift. I don't need to have that feel and feedback, I just like it.

[redefined_cycles]

Living with the (2021 version) di2 XTR was surprisingly really really good and easy James. If you ever get the chance to own I really think you will love it. I'd just plug in to a USB Powerbank and get my levels right back up. 600 or so miles of hilly riding with lots of gear shifts.

Phenomenal would be the word. The SRAM (albeit, in mtb version so not a good comparison) felt clunky in comparison and that thumb lever just felt dumb. I think I sold it when I split my bike and never bothered to invest in it again.

£550 for a rear mech though , forget that!!

[redefined_cycles]

As for pricing, the upgrade kit, which includes the new derailleur, shifter, battery, charger, and a quick link, comes in at a hefty $985 USD. The derailleur alone is priced at $665, the shifter at $220, the battery at $55, and the charger at $45. Essentially, you get a free quick link when buying the full kit. The crank, whether you go with the XC or Enduro version, is $310, and the two new cassettes are priced at $500. All chainrings are sold at $150. It’s far from cheap, but XTR has never been about affordability.

Taken from Bikepacking.com... 'Essentially you get a free quicklime if buying the full upgrade kit'

[Dyffers]

I like my 11spd cabled Di2. I really like that I can trim the mechs with a button press, don't go out of alignment whilst riding, the MTB junction box that displays gear, being able to fit TT barend shifters extra to my dropbar shifter in seconds with a plug in, removing the rear mech for suitcase transport...I doubt I'll go back to cables for road/gravel bikes.

I have three sets on road bikes that have been robust and I managed 57 hours of riding on PBP 2023 on a single battery charge (front and rear mechs). Almost all my parts have been sourced second hand, so I reckon £250-300 per groupset in 2019-2021.

I also have 11spd Di2 on my rigid MTB as in 2021 I scored a new XT rear mech for £107 in 2021 and thought I would give it a go. I've since found a spare XT Di2 mech for £60, but the first one is still going fine. I expect it to do 10 hours at Gravelfoyle in a couple of weeks and only use 10-20% of the battery at most.

However, I wouldn't put Di2 (at sub-£150 a mech) on a serious MTB for fear of smashing it, and I wouldn't use a £500+ rear mech on any bike! I might also change to cable drivetrain on a multiday offroad event for the same reason I might accept cable disc braking over hydraulic brakes: ultimate trailside repairablility that just isn't possible with electronics.

[johnnystorm]

It covers the necessary range required for top flight XC and Marathon riders looking to shave thousandths off their lap times. Thats the yardstick to measure it against.

[jameso]

If you ever get the chance to own I really think you will love it.

I had it for a while on an Arkose that had a D12 / Tektro mash up (was actually the first production bike with electronic gears and hydro drop bar discs) and I can get Shimano kit at prices that make XTR justifiable and affordable. I like riding it, it works brilliantly but never had the urge to have it on my day to day bikes. Maybe there's something about that black box of mystery electronics that lacks appeal. I know Di2 has a great reliability rep. It's more about the way that I'm happy I can fix trad cabled kit but electronics aren't my thing, I just know I'd be a lot more annoyed with an electronics failure on a ride than a trad cable set up.

It covers the necessary range required for top flight XC and Marathon riders looking to shave thousandths off their lap times. Thats the yardstick to measure it against.

Yeah, XTR always was XT Race. I suppose what I'm really grouchy about is how a continued march towards 'performance' diminishing returns comes at the cost of viability for wider use. BITD XTR was just as good for adventurous XC trips as it was for racing. Now the focus on performance under that definition and the trickle-down thing means the choice is wireless or Deore / 105 / Cues level kit (which I'm fine with using, I'm no kit snob, but I'd like the choice particularly on drop bar bikes)

(I realise I'm saying nothing new here, just a stock retrocgrough grumble )

[Dyffers]

...adventurous XC trips...

That reminded me of the other thing an electric rear mech is great for: a tandem, avoiding the super-long cable run and associated friction. I chucked my spare XT Di2 mech and some Ultegra shifters (cable disc brakes for some hypocrisy ) on the tandem me and my daughter rode at the WRT.

[redefined_cycles]

Regrouching-grumble is good Jameso. I think maybe if you shout at the screen at the time of writing it might also help

My first di2 in 10 speed, when the rear mech started doing ghost type of stuff, I tried to find a spare. The used market was trying to sell them for about £400. Never showed at the screen but I think chucked some of it in the bin. Felt better ever after. 11 speed though was a total different kettle of shift. So nice and reliable and as long as you carry that cable-attaching kit you never really go wrong.

Wireless or electronic shifting. Maybe one day!! But the fact that they're stated range is 200 miles, means it might not even work for the Bearbones200

[redefined_cycles]

...adventurous XC trips...

That reminded me of the other thing an electric rear mech is great for: a tandem, avoiding the super-long cable run and associated friction. I chucked my spare XT Di2 mech and some Ultegra shifters (cable disc brakes for some hypocrisy ) on the tandem me and my daughter rode at the WRT.

XT di2 on a tandem that is so absolutely cool.

[faustus]

This is the thread i've been waiting for after reading all of the fawning reviews. Never mind retrogrouch - i'm here just for the grouch!

Firstly, i'm middle aged and have never been a racer. I'm not into new tech for tech's sake, and electronics on bikes does nothing for me and i'll avoid it for as long as I can. I'm still on HG freehubs and 10 speed, so that probably says all you need to know. Not because I think newer 11-12spd is worse or anything (I guess, never owned it?), just that what I have is still pretty good! M980 10 speed shifter and M786 XT mech is pretty sweet at shifting in my eyes. Oh, but i'm still only using 11-42 cassettes as they are still large in my eyes. And my M988 levers are probably the nicest shimano have done, and work very well and reliably.

Anyway, new XTR problems:
- Ugly. Chainset the worst XTR I can think of, mainly graphic and chainring.
- Not a nice looking new brake lever arrangement. They've gone all SRAM stealth in design and look horrible. I still think it's lame that newer shimano brakes have an extra bracket touching the bars to stop flex - just make a proper clamp for christ's sake!
- Slipped in a new low viscosity brake fluid that's not backward compatible, so a new 'standard'.
- Slipped in a new microspline cassette lockring arrangmenet, so a new 'standard' and tool.

I'm sure it works amazingly, i've just got nothing positive to contribute on the matter, and thanks for the safe space to express that!

[whitestone]

Mike Hall used Di2 on his sub 14 day Tour Divide, not sure if there's anywhere that states how many times he recharged the system during that time though I imagine there's a lot of ground where you pick a gear and basically stay in it for hours (or even days) so battery life might not be such an issue.

Once you go to the higher level groupsets (XT, XTR on MTB and Ultegra, Dura-Ace on road) then the lifespan of the actual drivetrain reduces significantly. Cath got a bike (think it was a Juliana) that came with XTR, chain and cassette needed replacing after a few months. Slapped LX grade components on it as that, to me, is about the sweetspot in terms of longevity, reliability, cost. On road, unless you are racing, then 105 is still the groupset to beat, though my road bike has either a Tiagra or Sora cassette as that was only what was available at the time. Can't say I notice the difference.

I was going to go for GRX Di2 on my latest bike but the GRX mechanical fitted Canondale was such a good price that I couldn't justify an extra £1300 or so to find a model with Di2. I have ridden an Ultegra Di2 fitted bike and while nice it wasn't Dom Perignon vs Chateau plonk nice.

[redefined_cycles]

Never mind retrogrouch - i'm here just for the grouch!

Haha, I thought the title was regrouching. Thought JamesO was having a month of grouching and this was the latest form of venting. Wondered how many other forums he'd already pre-grouched

Thanks for the clarification and for reference, I gave up on retro-tat after I tried coming down (the proper way after climbing it, on the) Wrynose Pass. Had XTR (well, Dura Ace 9100) caliper brakes on with Swiss top pads on rim brakes. The dream bike (Independent Fabrication) couldn't handle the level of steep (to be fair it was torrential wet) and the skidding was so much that I had to use/make a sort of escape lane.

Rode straight into the rocks on the side and made my mind up that it was no longer dream bike and I'm done with rim brakes. On hydraulic discs now on the roadie too

Regrouching very retrogrouching. Pretty certain they can be used for the same sentence... Hmm, best to stop here before it becomes a bit STW. e groupset on the mtb. Maybe one day

[redefined_cycles]

On the subject of retro and being a grouch. I'm slowly trying to being myself into the 21st century and upgrading kit (affordably). This is one bag I'm finding it hard to part with. If any of the retro cranky lot want it, then just drop me a PM.

Just keeps getting in the way but dare not put it on Ebay for fear of it going for 99p. Rather have it go here for that sort of money (all proceeds to charity). Let me know if anyone has any need please and sorry for overlapping retro gears with (flimsy) retro TT bags.

[jameso]

Chainset the worst XTR I can think of, mainly graphic and chainring

The industrial design of all bike kit is unfortunately more industrial now isn't it. I like new XTR styling a lot more than Transmission (too cybertruck brutalist or just pain huge imo). I'd agree it's the least appealing XTR FC so far though.

Mike Hall used Di2 on his sub 14 day Tour Divide

The old internal battery wired version had great battery life - a whole long distance race could be no problem. Now we have sleek wire-free bikes that need a quick charge every 200-300 miles, that's progress ..

XT di2 on a tandem that is so absolutely cool.

+1

Wondered how many other forums he'd already pre-grouched

Just this one, haha. I'd probably get beat up by the technoluminate on all the others

[redefined_cycles]

Talking about XTR and Dura Ace. Though they might not (according to some) be made for ruggedness as much as some other kit. The after sales is phenomenal.

My Dura Ace 9100 cranks were creaking but it never occurred to me that it was actually delamination. I thought the factory fault was only on the previous models of Ultegra. Also has a Dura Ace bottom bracket (I've never had to change a DA or XTR bottom bracket AFAIR in the past 15 years.

Anyway, so after constant checks of the BB and other stuff. I just out the creak down to the carbon and a poor hole setup. This one day as I rode back from a Harrogate commute, put down a bit of power and suddenly the crank comes apart (safely I might add and it was still rideable thereafter).

Quick mention on a Telegram gravel bike group and it was suggested I check the batch number. Cross referenced, then dropped it at Woodrup Cycles in Leeds. Sent across for inspection by Shimano and about 3 weeks later I had a brank spanking new 9200 chainset in my hands (well the one that closely matched some design stuff of the 9100, so a special order item).

This crankset was now about 4 years old in my use and zi was the second owner

[Johnallan]

Having spent the morning swapping XT brakes on a rigid bike for some cheap, second hand BB7's (thanks Joe), I'm confident I'm not the target audience

[redefined_cycles]

I think maybe a more comprehensive definition of the term might be an advantage. Especially if it's by a retro retrogrouch.

https://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/20 ... s.html?m=1

Interesteing topic/explanations.

[fatbikephil]

I noticed a few folk with AXS at the HT this year, and also noted a few folks having problems with them. Just one more thing to stress about plus what's better to carry with you - a spare gear wire or a spare battery and yet another charger.

What frustrates me is that this will doubtless 'trickle down' and cables will be the preserve of the cheapo groupos.

Ah well, I'll keep on with SS for a few more years. When the gears are solar powered I may be in

[Valerio]

what's better to carry with you - a spare gear wire or a spare battery and yet another charger.

For a useless mechanic like me, 100% spare battery and charger

Yes it might mean I'd have to swap batteries/recharge, but that's hardly an issue, especially in a race.
Fiddling with a cable that needs feeding through a frame, possibly in the dark, most likely while sleep deprived? Not good.

No doubt i should learn how to swap cables, rather than taking a mortgage for a new drivetrain!

[godivatrailrider]

When the gears are solar powered I may be in

Don't you live in Scotland? Solar, that's brave !

[jameso]

a cable that needs feeding through a frame

Internal cable routing? Not for this committed retrogrouch!

[redefined_cycles]

When the gears are solar powered I may be in

Don't you live in Scotland? Solar, that's brave !