Training thread

[jameso]

Interesting stuff composite.. this

I did wonder actually if the strength work had just brought my legs up so they weren't the limitng factor any more as opposed to my CV system getting worse, maybe a mixture of the 2?

is something I'd like to know more about, whether leg strength and cardio are fairly separate in a relatively fit/regular rider, or closely inter-related. I've read that strength can be lost quite fast, also been told by an ex-road pro that strength is kept for a lot longer than the higher-end cardio so focus on keeping the cardio up with the turbo/hill work etc.

One other thing I don't know about and can't seem to find an answer on - how constant is your Lactate Threshold heart rate, LTHR? I don't work off my max, just % of LTHR. I understand that raising your LTHR power output / FTP is the aim in all training. But I CBA with power meters and getting too analytic about it all etc. If I'm working at my threshold now and it's approx what it was this time last year, maybe a few BPM higher, is that to be expected or would I see a higher HR at threshold limit as I get fitter? I hope I'm putting out a bit more power at my LTHR, but I don't know as it's all on perceived effort and cadence X resistance, not accurate really. tbh I'm not that bothered .. just trying to understand the basics as going faster is more fun )

[numplumz]

Neil (Composite) Your point 4 is very accurately described and valid, age is a factor too.
Imagine your legs growing by that much each year too,

[thomthumb]

I'm not sure my opinions are worth much as I never seem to be as fast as perhaps i should be for the riding, and talking about training i do!

However i have seen a reasonable improvement in (usable) bike fitness in the last couple of years - since I focused on threshold work - in particular around 20 minute power. I've been doing 2-3 turbo sessions a week over the winter and maintaining that with 1-2 in the summer.
This link is interesting http://www.biketechreview.com/performan ... definition

When i say useable power - what i mean is that i used to be able to plod on for days, or a short sprint. but what has improved is the ability to 'push on a bit'.

For me specificity means being sure that each workout has a purpose. When i do weights for example i'm doing exercises that will improve on the bike performance. If you can't say what it's doing then ditch it.

I have on at least two occasions messed up training somewhat: I spent a lot of time on the road before 24:12 a couple of years ago - i felt really strong; super fit and was pounding away at the climbs, but my technical skills were a bit rusty. This was ok on the first few laps but come 3 am the dew came down everything got slippy and i didn't have the skills to stay upright!

Last may i was doing a 100 mile sportive with a couple of friends who i knew are a bit faster than me - i missed a lot of dec-february on the bike due to house buying - i spent feb- may training at threashold, trying to imrove my FTP. I completely neglected any HI work. from the start they went off just abit higher than i could manage, i couldn't recover and blew up after about an hour.

At the moment i'm focussing on 20mp and hill climbing; in prep for the wildcat 100 - it has a lot more climbing than i'm used to! After that i'm not sure but i am certaintly aiming to do a couple of 200k audaxs this year.

One thing that frustrates me is a couple of friends i know who don't seem to ride as many miles, or hills as i do but seem to be significantly faster than me. I used to think they didn't have the long distances in them - but then they rode 200 miles at a better average speed than 90% of my rides all year!

[Zippy]

I'll do a longer post when I grab a moment of time. In summary I did it all properly for about a year (including lots of reading, jumping in on a few lecture of sport science at Lboro despite studying Civil Engineering and following pretty accurately a training plan). Anyway, it worked quite well (won BUCS mtb champs, 2nd torchbearer12, podium mountain mayhem 5 person etc.)...but eventually riding in the Alps I twanged a muscle badly because I'd improved my cardio above my muscle strength and was being a bit bloody minded... and it's now got to the point where I've lost heart in "training" and just go out to ride for smiles - especially as time has become a bit more of a factor since joining the "real world" vs uni days.
BB200 was the only real event I did competitively in 2013, I didn't really train but subconsciously upped the milleage on my commute and did a test run of sleep deprivation and riding + my nav system, finished in a time I was happy with and a proper delve into the unknown - I've decided mental strength really does trump a lot when endurance riding, it's all in the mind!

[slowupslowdown-under]

agree with zippy

when you go long a huge percentage of the drive to continue comes from your head.

was happy to go sub 24hrs on BB200 and learnt so much which will enable me to get round in a better time next time. I'm sure I'll be fitter in October this year than last but no training can fully prepare you for riding through the night.

I probably wont go that much faster but I'll be mentally better prepared and will stop less which will defo help.

I do about 70% of my 'training' on road, 10% spinning (which is very HII) and the rest off road. I do find my skills waning somewhat when split this way (as I discovered on Monday night!) but find myself much stronger for it. Did a 135m road ride the weekend before last. Felt surprisingly good and, after a feed, could have gone to 200m without too much hassle. Easy to think though after a few Heineken recovery drinks!

Riding as much as possible for as long as you can must pay off for us lesser mortals I'd have thought.

[mountainbaker]

This is all fascinating. I've chatted with Composite a fair bit about his strength training, and it really seemed to have helped his climbing when we rode together on There N Back. I was suffering after a lack of riding over christmas with an injured knee. Since then I've concentrated on climbing, in several ways;

Like a few, I do a lot of road riding, probably about 70% of my riding is road. One problem with this is the amount of climbing I do out of the saddle. This is good, in some ways (more muscle groups being used etc) but when on long MTB rides, I tend to climb seated a lot more, due to traction. So recently I've been climbing on the road bike in the saddle as much as I can. I've also been doing quite a bit of yoga to improve core strength (and aid my back which has had a lot of injuries over the years). Also doing some high intensity stuff on the turbo, and it's all really helped. I can't attribute any one thing to an improvement in climbing, but it is improving pretty fast.

Chatting with Ian at the post-BB200 breakfast, it became clear that also the type of training, not just the number of miles really makes a difference. Mental strength is obviously very powerful on long endurance stuff. I've yet to really do some multi-day stuff where I'm pushing > 100-150 a day, but it'll be interesting to see how I cope.

On BB200, and again on There N Back, one thing I noticed is how badly I managed my calorie intake. I just don't feel hungry when I cycle, then I bonk badly. I've now got into the habit of eating something every hour, but it's taken ages to get this ingrained in my riding style. I only do this really on rides over 80 miles I guess.

[composite]

OK so no one has really talked about core work yet. The one gym work out I make sure I get done every week above any wight sessions is core circuits. A strong core is going to mean you can maintain the right posture and position on the bike for a long time. I have noticed a lot less bobbing around when I get tired and I think this has meant my technique stays better for longer.

I do this circuit 3 times with no rest between exercises, but I have a few mins and a cup of water between each circuit.. The reps are just suggestions as a starting place. If you don't do much on your core then this is going to hurt for a couple of days afterwards so ease yourself into it.

Glute Bridge (10-20 reps), Plank (as long as you can), Scissor Kicks (15-25 reps), Weighted Russian Twist (10-20 reps with 10KG plate), Weighted Hyper-extension (10-20 reps with 3-6kg medicine ball), Side Plank (as long as you can), Bird Dog (10-20 reps).

[zigrat]

Just to throw a spanner in....
I'm coming round to the view that "fitness" (however you want to define it) is less important than what I would call "metabolic" training i.e. the ability of your body to effectively use fat for fuel while you're doing this type of riding. I ran into some problems last year when I just burnt through my fuel by riding too hard e.g. at the 002BB and had to go to ground to recover. I think the only way to get this is to do lots and lots of miles in zone 1 and 2 (which won't earn you many strava points) and be really disciplined with this, in effect i'm agreeing with Ian about the specificity of training for our type of riding. Whilst HII will get you fitter say as defined by an improvement in your lactate threshold power I'm not sure this will translate into being a better bikepack racer. If you put the long steady miles in then you will get fitter and more efficient and therefore quicker over the long run. Just make sure to do it loaded so the extra 5kgs doesn't come as a shock on race day

Over to you Mr Barrington.....

[jameso]

zigrat, I'm no expert but my experience agrees with you on fueling or training for efficiency, the most important thing. Fasted early am rides on my SS for a couple of hours and Jan-March road work limited to Z2 of 60-100 miles did a lot for me the last couple of years, partic. last spring. I have a fairly high metabolism I think and used to just go out and ride like a dog of the leash and blow within 2 hours. The low-level stuff helped hugely and I like Z2 stuff as 'training', it's just easy relaxed riding. I like road riding for that base stuff as I can't ride at that level off-road as consistently. Not sure how much maintenance a base need though.

I also think once you have that base/metabolism thing, the HI LT stuff really helps raise the level you can ride at - at my mid-pace endurance level I think I can (or could!) climb that bit harder or just keep up a slightly higher pace for longer. Not much, at first I was a bit disappointed as I expected more short-term pace with that many hours of training but it counts over a longer day and if you can recover well and repeat it you're there I think.

[Ian]

A few experiences of mine from over the years:

I used to train with a powertap, and be coached by Matt Hart at Torq Fitness. One of the base sessions I would do is do five hours in Z2. But, the catch was it was Z2 power ALL the time, so gear up on the descents, pedal against the brake to keep the power up and so on. The result was that as fatigue set in, heart rate would rise in order to sustain the 180 watts or whatever. So, I would typically start a ride at 125bpm and finish over 150bpm for the same power. Also, as there was no freewheeling, that was 5 hours of pedalling which was a damn sight harder than it otherwise seems. A good way of building endurance, but the key element is the heart rate response with duration, so if you're just training by heart rate, you need to allow or the fact that if heart rate remains constant, power will effectively decrease through the ride.

With single speeding, that all gets turned on its head. You can't operate on the basis of constant power because you have no means other than cadence to control the power required to get up something. Thus, on any given SS ride of any duration you'll find yourself at or above threshold. That threshold is as defined my the power at which your body produces > 4 mMol of blood lactate (I think, but Zigrat might be able to correct me). There is a lag with heart rate, so the total proportion of time at or over threshold is not necessarily shown in any data you get from your HRM. So, on practise every SS ride trains my top end to some extent or another.

As far as fuelling is concerned, if you can operate at Z2 your dependancy on carbs is low as you burn fat more easily. Z3 and up you start to need carbs, and if you don't take them onboard then you'll bonk eventually. Because of the tendency for power to be so variable when SS'ing carb intake is important. I frequently get this wrong and find myself suffering more than I should on very long rides. But, although SS forces a certain pace up hill, so too does it on flat or downhills where power is at the Z1/Z0 level. I think in these areas I burn fat quite well and, because every ride has some threshold work in it, I can recover quite well from these efforts.

I'm not sure what conclusions you can draw from that though...

[jameso]

A good way of building endurance, but the key element is the heart rate response with duration, so if you're just training by heart rate, you need to allow or the fact that if heart rare remains constant, power will effectively decrease through the ride.

This is really useful, a good reminder. It's good to know how far you can go on almost no food intake at steady Z2, a useful pacing lesson, but maybe that's not what's best for longer term gains.
I've been less strict on my Z2 rides this winter as I read that effort needed to hit a power level goes up as you fatigue, seems so logical - same as the last 1 or 2 intervals where my HR and effort is higher to keep the same gear/resistance going. Am I right in thinking that this is the point you need to get to to get the advantage from training, it's those last intervals that make the difference, the early ones just get you to that point? Again, Qs based on HR training w/o a power meter but being aware of how to read HR and PE to make up for some of that.

[Ian]

I'm not sure I have an answer for your last Q, James. I don't ride with power now, or that often with a HRM (and when I do, it's more for curiosity). Most of my rides are partly based on PE (Percieved Exertion, in case anyone was wondering), but with the SS you can either get up stuff or you can't so it all goes out of the window a bit. Strava's VAM is quite a good gauge of pace/climbing effort, and I was interested to read about this aspect in Bradley Wiggins' book. But that only works on Strava segments.

Last weeks ride with Aidan revealed I was less able to get up stuff than he was, and that boiled down mainly to me not being strong enough because of not training my legs for strength. I imagine most people thinking how can you not be strong from pedalling the Puffin around the Beacons, and up until last week, I would have agreed with you. Take your bike to Devon - they have hills over there a lot harder to ride than the ones I have here

Or, so I thought. Last Sunday's ride replicated fairly well the severity of Devon by riding trails I previously thought weren't worth bothering with because they'd be too much like hard work. But that's the whole point. Training is supposed to be hard. By doing my normal training rides faster wasn't necessarily getting me fitter on the singlespeed because I can't gear up to compensate. I needed to find training rides that get harder as I get fitter, so I continually get stronger.

Which kind of brings me back to the original question Jameso posted:

Joe Friel talks about base training as 'preparing to train harder'. Any opinions on all that?

[numplumz]

Heart rate is affected by more than just the effort put in, probably why power has taken over as the serious training tool.

Last year I was on a mission and started using my power tap wheel rather than just looking at the pretty numbers.
Doing the same base ride commutes trying to hold 200 w and comparing to heart rate ( Friel calls it EF) it was noticeable that as my base improved the heart rate for a given power decreased.

What was really noticeable with a power meter was the times I thought I was going hard, then you look down and the Meter tells you otherwise.

Back to heart rate and its unreliability, I found that going to work I'd have one heart rate for my 200w power. Coming home it was 15 BPM less.
Why I'm not entirely sure, but when I used to train to heart rate it explained why I used to kill myself after work and think I was crap because I could not reach the zone I wanted; actually I was putting out more power.

Ian, surely the old pyramid analogy applies for your base question. The bigger the base, the higher the peak you can build. I know I'm suffering this year having my base curtailed by broken bones

[mountainbaker]

Ian, I saw your ride with Aidan on strava. Yeah, we have a lot of hills in Devon. for the last 6 months of so, I think I had been doing what you were doing, avoiding tracks/trails/roads that I deemed too much hassle! I went out the other day with a route that threw me at most of the steep roads around here, something like 1400ft of climbing every 10 miles. It was hard, but as you say, it should be, especially as I'm trying to work on my strength when climbing.

After reading all this, I'm starting to get a bit SS curious. Maybe I'll build a total heap up out of spares (i have nearly enough in the barn) and ride that around SS and see how I get on. Hmm... A lot to take in here.

[jameso]

What was really noticeable with a power meter was the times I thought I was going hard, then you look down and the Meter tells you otherwise.

Back to heart rate and its unreliability, I found that going to work I'd have one heart rate for my 200w power. Coming home it was 15 BPM less.

Interesting. I use my HR to limit base rides and get a guide to what effort I put in but I tend to go off how I feel at least as often. Knowing how training guides all say power is so much more important I think we have to if not using a power meter. On the turbo, LT training is great as I go off the ebb and flow of pain in my legs, it's 30 mins TT pace, not any particular HR. If I'm at 5-10 beats lower at that level of perceived effort, I know I'm tired.

ie on the turbo this week I've been experimenting with my focus. I can sit at my approx LTHR of 170-175 'relatively comfortably' for a 4-5 min interval, yet if I stop making a meal of it and relax, zone out and focus on my breathing, my cadence goes up and I can stay at that HR. Or a bit more focus and I can sit at 180 for the same PE as 170-175. All the effort is from legs and cardio, not gurning face muscles and bobbing shoulders ) So I'm seeing changes in output going up / PE going down, or the lack of direct link between power and HR. Same thing seen when climbing, for me smooth, stood up in a higher gear / lower cadence is faster for a given HR than sat down and spinning. Any SSers notice that? Just wondered if that's where it comes from.

I'd like to hire a power meter to get some reference points. I'm waiting for a lower cost strain gauge PM to come out but it may be a while.

[composite]

when climbing, for me smooth, stood up in a higher gear / lower cadence is faster for a given HR than sat down and spinning. Any SSers notice that? Just wondered if that's where it comes from.

This is interesting. I have been specifically working on high cadence quite a lot for climbing. I could be spinning at 70, change gear so peddling at 90+ and I can feel the acceleration. Often my heart rate might go up slightly (not normally a huge amount), but the pain in my legs I can suck up for far longer than at the lower cadence where I'm going slower! The pain is different somehow.

I'd like to hire a power meter to get some reference points. I'm waiting for a lower cost strain gauge PM to come out but it may be a while.

I would love one too, but you can buy a bike for the cost of a power meter and I just can't afford that. Recently realised the bikes in my gym where I do my intervals have power so I'm just starting to use those for what were my 85% intervals. I had a go this week and aimed at 275-300watts for 17mins x2 (5mins off) which worked out about 85-87% heart rate. It was nice to know I was pushing the value I was going for straight from the off and not waiting for heart rate to catch up. I have no idea about power though so I was just plucking numbers from the air. I guess over time I will start to get a feel for it.

In the whole power vs heart rate discussion is the conventional wisdom that your heart rate doesn't always mean your effort? Where as your power output does? Or is the power output just your out put as opposed to effort and output.
What I mean is that will the effort you have to put in to output a certain power fluctuate some days depending on "stuff" in the same way that you heart rate fluctuates depending on stuff?

Another limiting factor for me I feel is not having faster people to ride with. I pretty much ride on my own these days as I got to be fastest in my group and it was starting to become frustrating. I think if I had faster people to ride with this would be very good for me. I try to push myself but I'm not sure I'm pushing myself enough.

[jameso]

The pain is different somehow.

yup.. my spin is rubbish, I've done roller racing and I got beat ) I meant more at a moderate pace, when I've been tired on a day 2-3 Alpine road climb I've been spinning more than hauling. More sustainable. But I tend to revert to hauling steadily more naturally, bad habit I think. If I had a power meter for a week or 2 it's one thing I'd look at more closely.

will the effort you have to put in to output a certain power fluctuate some days depending on "stuff" in the same way that you heart rate fluctuates depending on stuff?

As far as I understand it yes, fatigue will mean a higher HR / lower power. As the post above from numbplumz.

[Bearbonesnorm]

The spinning v stomping is an odd one. Although I SS sometimes I usually ride with gears and have always found I'm much happier with a low cadence and a high gear. This tends to go against the usual climbing practice and beliefs, so for quite a while I tried to up my cadence but generally this just resulted in getting knackered.

A chance conversation with a sports therapist (and ultra runner) led me to discover (and understand) muscle fibres and the difference between fast and slow twitch. It transpired that I have slow twitch, so have a naturally low cadence but can push a hard gear for hours on end ... those with fast twitch are obviously the opposite. Luckily slow twitch muscles are suited to endurance pursuits

[Farawayvisions]

something I notice on multi-day rides is that as the number of days increase, rather than suffering from fatigue I actually start to get stronger. I can only imagine that my body is quickly learning to cope and adapt to the stresses being placed on it.

I believe in the multi program approach to training, and I don't mean switching channels (as I don't have TV anyway). If you're a racer, then you need to be dedicated to training, but for me, I like to just do it and find that I get fit as I go.

what I mean on the multi program approach is that you do whatever it is that you are doing with gusto. eg, the vacuuming, ironing, walking or riding to work, eating, chatting. Do everything with passion and believe in yourself.

[Ian]

Power = force x velocity

Force is you pushing on the pedals, velocity is your cadence. You might find that in the spinning scenario your power is higher, therefore you're putting more effort in than what seems like a high force more slowly.

I was nearly undone on the BB200 over this issue. At the last minute, I switched to 32:18 (from my preferred 32:19) and regretted it. Apart from riding the first 50km at an average of so etching like 24kph, I needed much more force to turn the pedals up any given gradient. My legs weren't up for it and I was going straight through my threshold level on most of the steeper gradients. Lots of lactate acid produced and got cramp very quickly. It was a long 14 hours to the finish...

[composite]

A chance conversation with a sports therapist (and ultra runner) led me to discover (and understand) muscle fibres and the difference between fast and slow twitch. It transpired that I have slow twitch, so have a naturally low cadence but can push a hard gear for hours on end ... those with fast twitch are obviously the opposite. Luckily slow twitch muscles are suited to endurance pursuits

Are you sure you have that the right way round Stu? For sure slow twitch is seen as better for endurance but what you describe would as I understand it suggest that you have fast twitch. It's fast twitch muscles are used for strength and so the slower cadence. This article here that talks about efficiency on spinning over slow cadence but explains the paradox in the "logic" of the names. http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/ ... ent?page=2
I'm looking for something more in depth with proper references etc. but it's quick over view for now.

Since fast-twitch fibers are more powerful than slow-twitch cells, the fast-twitch fibers swing into action at slow cadences, when high muscular forces are needed to move the bicycle along rapidly.

Like 100 meter sprinters are all about the fast twitch because they are trying to do push maximum force possible with every stride "like" a slow cadence peddle.

[jameso]

For sure slow twitch is seen as better for endurance but what you describe would as I understand it suggest that you have fast twitch. It's fast twitch muscles are used for strength and so the slower cadence.

Now I'm confused ) but thinking about it and that link, it makes more sense. Short efforts work at max strength and long efforts use lower strength. Power lifting vs long-distance cycling. And spinning to some extent should be best in general for endurance rides. I've talked to a friend who's a power lifter and ex-judo instructor about training and he's made the same comparison between what we train for, now I remember (he's just a bit more dedicated than I am, ahem). I think SS works well for distance work as although it really taxes you on the climbs, it forces you to spin more most of the time, it certainly helped my poor pacing when I started riding SS most of the time rather than just in depths of winter. Less effective once fatigue sets in, or if it's really hilly, but then we're onto Ian's specific training for just that.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'm now confused too ... I'm pretty sure i've got it the correct way round but I'll search through my stuff and check. In my mind 'fast twitch' are spinning muscles because they can 'fire' quickly which is what you'd need for a high cadence/low resistance?

[numplumz]

I'm now confused too ... I'm pretty sure i've got it the correct way round but I'll search through my stuff and check. In my mind 'fast twitch' are spinning muscles because they can 'fire' quickly which is what you'd need for a high cadence/low resistance?

leg Speed doesn't come into it:

The slow twitch muscles are more efficient at using oxygen to generate more fuel (known as ATP) for continuous, extended muscle contractions over a long time. I.e. good for endurance.
Because fast twitch fibres use anaerobic metabolism (without Oxygen) to create fuel, they are much better at generating short bursts of strength or speed than slow muscles. However, they fatigue more quickly. Fast twitch fibres generally produce the same amount of force per contraction as slow muscles, but they get their name because they are able to fire more rapidly. Having more fast twitch fibres can be an asset to a sprinter since she needs to quickly generate a lot of force.

It's not a simple case of one or the other either. I have excellent long distance capability but I also have a mean sprint which means I can outrun riders who are way above my level of fitness................but only for 30 seconds.

Think of fast twitch as your Nitros-oxide Injection Stu, a massive power increase when you flick the switch, but the fuel runs out quickly and its back to slow old petrol power alone

[Aidan]

This thread is really interesting.

For what it's worth, I'm not sure that most sports science targeted at cycling has much useful to say about performing well at multi-day bikepacking events. I've talked to professional coaches about it, and they admit that they don't know what really works.

So you can take some ideas from conventional approaches to training, but maybe it's best not to get too hung up on their theories.

Personally, my "training" almost entirely revolves around what time I can carve out of the rest of life. There's never a scheduled rest week, but it averages out that every few weeks, I just don't have time to ride.

After too many winters of grinding my bikes, clothes, and sanity to destruction by doing lots of wet off-road, I've finally succumbed to mixing in some road. Compared to an off-road ride in utterly filthy conditions, it has a lot to recommend it - a sense of getting somewhere, relatively predictable speed, and very little stopped/walking time.

I wouldn't put away the mtb, since off-road is more fun and involves lots of efforts that aren't replicated on the road. But I would give myself a break by using the road bike to reduce the faff and get some consistent miles in now and again.

And I would make a pitch for running. I think it makes a big difference to your readiness for pushing the bike in a bikepacking ride, it's great for burning calories, and it's easy to fit in around life commitments.