Open street map error

[voodoo_simon]

https://outdoorsmagic.com/article/news- ... ation-app/

Quick version - Walker used an OSM app and found the ‘path’ didn’t exists

[Dave Barter]

I bet this is a user following someone else's route rather than a path on OSM.

[fatbikephil]

OSM can be hideously inaccurate. A lot of the marked paths were put there by people uploading gpx's rather than being surveyed so you are at the whim of those people and their GPS's.... I've also found major discrepancies in terrain features as well as a general lack of detail - fine if you are following a path but not if you need to locate yourself after having wandered off route..... If you are hill walking up proper hills only OS can be relied on.

[whitestone]

I've just checked Openstreetmap's site and there's no path heading north from Causey Pike so as Dave says, the person was probably following someone else's route.

Phil - I've edited OSM around us and I try to be accurate to within a couple of metres which isn't too difficult TBH. Also remember that OSM doesn't produce the maps that we would use on our devices, that's down to Garmin, AllTrails, Komoot, etc. and it's up to them to decide what to include in the files they generate. The only one I've quick access to is that used by Geograph.org and that shows no path north from Causey Pike either.

Edit: not sure if you need to be logged in as a user to see this but this is what the base data for the area looks like - https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/54.57688/-3.21227

[Dave Barter]

OSM can be hideously inaccurate. A lot of the marked paths were put there by people uploading gpx's rather than being surveyed so you are at the whim of those people and their GPS's.... I've also found major discrepancies in terrain features as well as a general lack of detail - fine if you are following a path but not if you need to locate yourself after having wandered off route..... If you are hill walking up proper hills only OS can be relied on.

Not strictly true. GPS traces can be uploaded as aids but you have to trace over these to add to the map. OSM changesets are usually peer reviewed and reverted if inaccurate (similar to wikipedia). Obviously this is volunteer run but do you know how OS Survey these days? Let's not mention offshore tracing shall we ;-)

The lack of detail is down to the fact that OSM cannot derive from OS at all. OS licensing prevents it and just like our addresses the cartography we paid for is not available to us for free. OSM mappers have to use on the ground surveys and non-licensed data to do this.

[fatbikephil]

Tah for the clarification Dave, although I guess it's down to what the peer reviewers are doing. I suppose it's less of a problem in England and Wales as most routes will be ROW's. The problem up here is that there are very few of those and lots of informal paths. Certainly I've come across plenty that don't match an OSM line and it often misses chunks of doubletrack out, possibly these are lifted from base mapping though. You also see a lot of 'militant mapping' - paths shown on OSM which take you past / through objectionable landowners properties...

Reading that article again, the twerp didn't look at any mapping, he just followed someones GPX..... hmm sounds familiar!

[arkay]

I've just checked Openstreetmap's site and there's no path heading north from Causey Pike so as Dave says, the person was probably following someone else's route.

The OSM layer on Outdooractive certainly shows a path in the location mentioned in the article, which isn't there on any other map layers (or on aerial photography, barring what looks to be a small track down to the stream leading south from the main E-W path at its northern end), so I wouldn't be so sure he was following a GPX.

D34561EB-B894-4A17-B99B-2C31F2129321.jpeg (73.09 KiB) Viewed 974 times

Weird that it’s not there in the OSM website. Maybe it’s been removed and the map apps have old data?

Reading that article again, the twerp didn't look at any mapping, he just followed someones GPX..... hmm sounds familiar!

That's not how I read that article. The MRT quote said he was following a route but decided to leave the route and take a shortcut using a path that was shown on the mapping. If the app he was using has the same OSM data as Outdooractive then it's easy to see how he went wrong - assuming a path shown on the app's mapping layer would exist in real life!

[whitestone]

Indeed it does.

I thought I'd check the Strava heat map - looks like a lot of runners have gone in that direction - https://www.strava.com/heatmap#16.00/-3 ... 61/hot/run. There's no Strava segments for that and I don't think any races go that way - that area is owned by the National Trust who like races to stick to the paths - Steve and Wynn Cliff had to go through a whole lot of hoops to get permission to start the Teenager with Attitude for example. I've asked on the FRA forums if there are races that use that fellside.

[whitestone]

An update. There's no races using that area but a long distance orienteering event did use a sheep fold down near the river as a checkpoint which might explain the heat map.

I tried to add a comment to the Outdoorsmagic article but it seems that you can only do so if you are on Facebook FFS! In the end I just emailed them saying that it was most likely Alltrails messing things up.

[Dave Barter]

An update. There's no races using that area but a long distance orienteering event did use a sheep fold down near the river as a checkpoint which might explain the heat map.

I tried to add a comment to the Outdoorsmagic article but it seems that you can only do so if you are on Facebook FFS! In the end I just emailed them saying that it was most likely Alltrails messing things up.

I looked at the OSM changesets for the area and cannot see a recent deletion of the path which backs ^ up

[whitestone]

Hmm, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-64183749

Does look like their review process needs, err, reviewing.

[Bearbonesnorm]

They were following a route mapped by AllTrails, which took them up a steep scree slope where there was no path

Not really true ... the reality is 'they took themselves up'. Did they not reach a point where they began to question the route before becoming stranded? I'm not sure we should blame technology for some peoples blind belief in it.

[Lazarus]

the risks of blindly following sat nav [ whether on foot, bike or car] and not checking the OS map.

[whitestone]

They were following a route mapped by AllTrails, which took them up a steep scree slope where there was no path

Not really true ... the reality is 'they took themselves up'. Did they not reach a point where they began to question the route before becoming stranded? I'm not sure we should blame technology for some peoples blind belief in it.

I'm going to be kind (controversial I know), what we don't know is whether they had just started using the app or had used it for some time without problem. If the latter then it's quite easy to fall into the trap of "it's always been right". Also there's a path at the start of that scree - there's a boulder that is painted white on a regular basis at the top of the scree - so if they started up that and lost it. I've also set on paths marked on the map that to begin with don't really exist on the ground but after 100m or so become defined and all is good. Dunno. There does come a point though when there's enough red flags that you seriously question the accuracy of things - there's a few on here that know that BB200 feeling

At the start of Covid I had a chat with the leader of Keswick MRT - he said they get a lot of "crag fast" walkers and runners, generally people who can't cope with being in an exposed position and just "freeze". MRT walk up, hands in pockets and escort them down.

Not sure if AllTrails is subscription based or a simple one-off fee or free but for under £30 you can buy all four OS 1:25k maps which with a bit of at home research on how to understand them will cover the fells for a lifetime. Of course preaching to the converted on here

[voodoo_simon]

Christ, that’s some research on the above Wuite a lot more in-depth than I was imagining would happen.

Only posted it more as a warning to everyone.

Personally, I’ll be sticking with OS over OSM for the mountains but I still use Komoot for plotting bike routes, but this is normally double checked (or triple?) checked with OS maps and/or Google maps depending where.

- - -

As a side or more of an expansion. I do worry about people blindly following other peoples trails/routes (either OS or OSM). Not as a Willy wave but once I did north ridge tryfan to summit, down the south side to Ogwen cottage and back to the car in two hours.

Here’s the part that worries me, if an average-inexperienced-Jo(e) saw it on a mapping app, they’d look at it and go ‘oh look’, here’s a nice two hour route, then they’ll be in trouble fairly quickly…

[whitestone]

I've got this back from outdoorsmagic...

Thanks for this – if this is the case I’ll look to update. Komoot, an OSM contributor, also shows the line from Causey Pike. I need to find out what links these different mapping sites then if it’s not Open Street Maps. Perhaps it’s based on user’s own GPS data and the line is the result of a common fell runner’s line.

[arkay]

It does raise an issue with mapping apps. Generally if I was using the base map layer then I would expect the paths shown to actually exist, either as a trail on the ground or at least as a right of way (which of course doesn't always exist on the ground). Following "suggested routes" is of course a different matter and you do follow some random stranger's GPX at your peril, but it seems to me that fell-runners' routes shouldn't be ending up mapped as paths on the base layer.

[GregMay]

An update. There's no races using that area but a long distance orienteering event did use a sheep fold down near the river as a checkpoint which might explain the heat map.

I was literally about to post that I've taken that route! IT was part of one of the Kong MMM series one year, and the LDMT another.

TBH, there will be a lot of GPX routes in many upland areas that are not on footpaths. We fellrunners don't tend to stick to them.