UK right to roam campaign
Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew
UK right to roam campaign
I wonder if this will get much momentum?
https://www.righttoroam.org.uk/ - seems to cover the debate well to my non-expert eyes at least. I'm sceptical, it's tricky to get into why w/o a political aspect dominating my thinking. I think you know where I stand on that Scepticism aside I'm following and supporting with interest.
https://www.righttoroam.org.uk/ - seems to cover the debate well to my non-expert eyes at least. I'm sceptical, it's tricky to get into why w/o a political aspect dominating my thinking. I think you know where I stand on that Scepticism aside I'm following and supporting with interest.
Re: UK right to roam campaign
Whilst I would like to see similar to Scotland here in England and Wales I can only imagine the number of people that would line up at the moment to object to such a scheme given the 'Covid Trippers' currently at large in the countryside
The amount of tabloid-style ammunition currently available to anyone that wants to object to the easing of access restrictions at the moment will be massive no matter how inaccurate or unreliable.
The amount of tabloid-style ammunition currently available to anyone that wants to object to the easing of access restrictions at the moment will be massive no matter how inaccurate or unreliable.
We go out into the hills to lose ourselves, not to get lost. You are only lost if you need to be somewhere else and if you really need to be somewhere else then you're probably in the wrong place to begin with.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
Yep, tempted to think I've have picked a time somewhere in the future to try this. I imagine that at present, plaiting snot would be an easier task.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
Interesting. I'd agree with both your summary and response James.
Obviously I would support this campaign, but I wonder if they will stop short of arguing for greater access for cycling in order to stand a better chance of success?
The website notes that cycling is included in the right to roam in other countries:
Obviously I would support this campaign, but I wonder if they will stop short of arguing for greater access for cycling in order to stand a better chance of success?
The website notes that cycling is included in the right to roam in other countries:
But omits it from its own list of activities it wants to see included:The Right to Roam is really just a definition of private property that is different to England. There are still major landowners in Norway, Counts in Sweden, Lords in Scotland who own many hundreds of thousands of acres. Their ownership of the land, however, while it allows them to take rent, mine and make money from the land, does not include the right to exclude every other member of the public. In these countries, the Right to Roam is considered so important to the health and mental well-being of a nation, that it supercedes that peculiarly English stipulation of property: the right to exclude. Instead, every person has a right to explore these vast open spaces, to sleep there, to kayak, swim, climb, ride horses and cycle.
We need greater access rights to the land and waterways of England and Wales. The CRoW act needs to spread its wings over the land that will benefit the public the most but it also needs to include activities other than walking. What about kayaking, paddleboarding, wild swimming, wild camping?
We’d also like to see access rights broadened beyond rambling to include a right to kayak, swim, and wild camp.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
Well, on my previous point, I thought the best way to find out was to ask them and I got this reply:
I guess if we want this campaign to benefit us as mountain bikers, we first need to lobby the campaign to include access for cycling in their proposals.ive spoken to various representatives from mountain biking organisations over the last two weeks - and they have opened my mind to this side of things - also, horse-riders
we need a discussion internally before we change our wording, but personally, im beginning to see that we should include it - we left it out, alongside horse riding, because i think we assumed landowners might be more against it than rambling - but people i have spoken to have made a great case for the lack of damage and intrusion...
really, our initial job is to get people interested, and to join up - then we need to have a conversation - a public debate on right to roam - we dont pretend to have all the answers, and certainly dont think england should do it our way, but we recognise the urgent need to start discussing it
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
A good point. However, I think it can be viewed either way. A decent lobbyist might be able to make an argument that some of these problems (that are rather overdone, IMO, in the press) are as a result of limited access. Given the pandemic and restrictions on people and travel maybe there is a spotlight on how little or how much of the land is inaccessible to be fairly shared for positive uses. Plus, the Govt is making noises about sustainable travel and the need for a better "environment" (then again, it's the Tories and I'm more likely to eat your plaited snot than believe them ).Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:07 pm Yep, tempted to think I've have picked a time somewhere in the future to try this. I imagine that at present, plaiting snot would be an easier task.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
Joined, and petition signed FWIW, and sent them a "lobbying" email.
The land access laws & rights in England are archaic and iniquitous.
Some great stuff in "The Book Of Trespass" which I'm still ploughing through .
Here's some snippets:
"The Occupy demonstrators moved to a derelict 65-acre site overlooking Runnymede [yes, you're ahead of me already here I'm sure!] which had been bought 5 years previously by an offshore investment company who wanted to build a high-end gated community called Magna Carta Park [oh the irony!]. They built forty homes from scrap, dug a well, and planted crops. They were a living re-enactment of John Locke's justification of private property: they were improving waste ground making it theirs through their own labour. Bailiffs were sent in twice, destroying buildings and crops, and on the eighth centenary of the signing of Magna Carta [!!!] an injunction was issued and the site cleared".
"The largest swathe of English land hidden behind offshore companies is the Gunnerside grouse moor, whose 27258 acres is registered in the British Virgin Islands and over a decade has received £430,000 of subsidies from the British taxpayer". So in fact you DO have a right to roam over this land - you've paid for it!
"The post-war Hobhouse report of 1947 proposed a full right to roam over all uncultivated land in England. It was proposed as a corollary to the NHS providing health and recreation and the prevention of illness before needing a cure. Landowners lobbied hard and a full right to roam was deemed a step too far. The compromise was the National Parks Act [which of course set up the ten national parks] which corralled the public into specific areas for recreation". Of course Boris, backed by his coterie of mega-land-owners, is now telling everyone to get on their bikes (*) to.... prevent obesity/illness before needing a cure!
(*) as discussed on another thread - only in segregated cycle lanes now. "Shared space" banned from now on. So, an Enclosure Act against cyclists!
The land access laws & rights in England are archaic and iniquitous.
Some great stuff in "The Book Of Trespass" which I'm still ploughing through .
Here's some snippets:
"The Occupy demonstrators moved to a derelict 65-acre site overlooking Runnymede [yes, you're ahead of me already here I'm sure!] which had been bought 5 years previously by an offshore investment company who wanted to build a high-end gated community called Magna Carta Park [oh the irony!]. They built forty homes from scrap, dug a well, and planted crops. They were a living re-enactment of John Locke's justification of private property: they were improving waste ground making it theirs through their own labour. Bailiffs were sent in twice, destroying buildings and crops, and on the eighth centenary of the signing of Magna Carta [!!!] an injunction was issued and the site cleared".
"The largest swathe of English land hidden behind offshore companies is the Gunnerside grouse moor, whose 27258 acres is registered in the British Virgin Islands and over a decade has received £430,000 of subsidies from the British taxpayer". So in fact you DO have a right to roam over this land - you've paid for it!
"The post-war Hobhouse report of 1947 proposed a full right to roam over all uncultivated land in England. It was proposed as a corollary to the NHS providing health and recreation and the prevention of illness before needing a cure. Landowners lobbied hard and a full right to roam was deemed a step too far. The compromise was the National Parks Act [which of course set up the ten national parks] which corralled the public into specific areas for recreation". Of course Boris, backed by his coterie of mega-land-owners, is now telling everyone to get on their bikes (*) to.... prevent obesity/illness before needing a cure!
(*) as discussed on another thread - only in segregated cycle lanes now. "Shared space" banned from now on. So, an Enclosure Act against cyclists!
Last edited by RIP on Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
I can't access the site from work but would be interested to see who is behind it and what connections, depth and/or breadth of support they have from existing organisations e.g. Cycling UK, Ramblers, BMC, BCU, BHS etc etc etc they have. Or is it *just* half a dozen well intentioned folk with a temporary bee in their bonnet?thenorthwind wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:37 pm Well, on my previous point, I thought the best way to find out was to ask them and I got this reply:
I guess if we want this campaign to benefit us as mountain bikers, we first need to lobby the campaign to include access for cycling in their proposals.ive spoken to various representatives from mountain biking organisations over the last two weeks - and they have opened my mind to this side of things - also, horse-riders
we need a discussion internally before we change our wording, but personally, im beginning to see that we should include it - we left it out, alongside horse riding, because i think we assumed landowners might be more against it than rambling - but people i have spoken to have made a great case for the lack of damage and intrusion...
really, our initial job is to get people interested, and to join up - then we need to have a conversation - a public debate on right to roam - we dont pretend to have all the answers, and certainly dont think england should do it our way, but we recognise the urgent need to start discussing it
Is that quote verbatim?
If I were being cynical (and I'm not looking to be negative but I do wonder) I'd question how experienced and abreast of issues the people behind this are if they are "having their mind opened" to the bike/horse issues after they've kicked this off.
Nor do I quite grasp:
and certainly dont think england should do it our way,
My thoughts are entirely based on the half dozen posts I've read in this thread so am curious, from a point of ignorance
Re: UK right to roam campaign
This could be a great time to start a campaign like this as the huddled masses from our great cities finally travel out into the countryside and see how restricted their freedoms actually are in their own land.
I’d prefer a bloody revolution with a guillotine in Trafalgar Square for private equity owners, but will settle for a right to roam.
I’d prefer a bloody revolution with a guillotine in Trafalgar Square for private equity owners, but will settle for a right to roam.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
"interested to see who is behind it" - looking at the very nice artwork on the site, which is authoritatively and cogently put-together, it's curiously similar to that in "The Book Of Trespass" so I reckon Nick Hayes has something to do with it as well. Investigating further....
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
And here we go - Nick Hayes ("The Book Of Trespass") and Guy Shrubsole ("Who Owns England?") : two books on my desk in front of me right now .
"WHO ARE WE?
We’re a growing alliance of ramblers, wild swimmers, paddle-boarders, kayakers, authors, artists and activists.
The campaign has been started by Nick Hayes, illustrator and author of The Book of Trespass, and Guy Shrubsole, environmental campaigner and author of Who Owns England?. Follow Nick on Twitter and Instagram; follow Guy on Twitter.
This campaign is for a wide and diverse range of people. If you are from a minority background, whether BAME or non-binary, if you are a mum or a dad, then our campaign needs your voice and mind to shape our approach. Please get in touch with us here."
But no cyclists in the alliance (yet)
Really pleased you've raised this James, and CM & TNW of course.
"WHO ARE WE?
We’re a growing alliance of ramblers, wild swimmers, paddle-boarders, kayakers, authors, artists and activists.
The campaign has been started by Nick Hayes, illustrator and author of The Book of Trespass, and Guy Shrubsole, environmental campaigner and author of Who Owns England?. Follow Nick on Twitter and Instagram; follow Guy on Twitter.
This campaign is for a wide and diverse range of people. If you are from a minority background, whether BAME or non-binary, if you are a mum or a dad, then our campaign needs your voice and mind to shape our approach. Please get in touch with us here."
But no cyclists in the alliance (yet)
Really pleased you've raised this James, and CM & TNW of course.
Last edited by RIP on Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
No, no, no - that's exactly the deferential cap-doffing servitude these land "owners" have relied on for the past 1000 years .
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
I suspect the latter, but they are at least eloquent...Cheeky Monkey wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:05 pm I can't access the site from work but would be interested to see who is behind it and what connections, depth and/or breadth of support they have from existing organisations e.g. Cycling UK, Ramblers, BMC, BCU, BHS etc etc etc they have. Or is it *just* half a dozen well intentioned folk with a temporary bee in their bonnet?
...if unaware of the shift key: yes.Is that quote verbatim?
[/quote]
Reply was signed "nick" so maybe? Edit: yes. Well done Reg.RIP wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:09 pm "interested to see who is behind it" - looking at the very nice artwork on the site, which is authoritatively and cogently put-together, it's curiously similar to that in "The Book Of Trespass" so I reckon Nick Hayes has something to do with it as well. Investigating further....
Re: UK right to roam campaign
I don't know if change to established ROW use is different or more complicated than enabling RTR, I need to find time to read the site content in more detail. If UK RTR was to follow Scotland's example then Scotroutes would know more on that I expect.thenorthwind wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:11 pm Obviously I would support this campaign, but I wonder if they will stop short of arguing for greater access for cycling in order to stand a better chance of success?
A RTR campaign in Wales fell flat not long ago didn't it, do I remember that?
I wonder if the end result if successful may be something we'd benefit from (^ that Q there), but could (politically/PR-wise) hinder if part of it from the start. I mean, MTBs common image now of trail-smashing Enduroists on e-bikes with 3" tyres wearing red shorts and full-face lids.. it might not help help at the superficial level. Then there's the 'trail-builders'. I could understand a deliberate avoidance of mentioning bike access.But no cyclists in the alliance (yet)
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
"how experienced and abreast of issues the people behind this are " = "VERY" Buy the books... and we really need to be right behind this. BearBones corporate membership perhaps .
Reasonable points. First stage as said above - get involved.jameso wrote: I wonder if the end result if successful may be something we'd benefit from but could hinder if part of it from the start.... I mean, MTBs common image now of trail-smashing Enduroists.... it might not help help at the superficial level... Then there's the 'trail-builders'. I could understand a deliberate avoidance of mentioning bike access.
Last edited by RIP on Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
Cheers Reg. I've still to pick back up "Who Owns England" and must admit to be struggling a bit with something about it. Maybe it's just the writing style Will get back to it now I've finished my other tome.
Northwind - sorry, I'm such an old fart and am not a fan of self appointed grammar-police but that reply was just a bit too "yoof"
Northwind - sorry, I'm such an old fart and am not a fan of self appointed grammar-police but that reply was just a bit too "yoof"
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
Mebe.
But then it's a bit like the Guardian columnist Peter Walker who writes on cycling and wrote Bike Nation setting himself up as the championing organisation for cycling (I don't think he has, has he ). You need more than two blokes with books, you need an appropriate organisation which is properly set up and accountable. Hell, if you aren't going to somehow get the Ramblers on side then you're a bit foo-bar'd and heavenforbid you'd have to engage with the horsey (to some extent landowning set What's that saying about strange bedfellows?
Next there'll be a crowdfunding campaign
I'll stop. I'm just conjuring obstacles, talking sh!te and avoiding spreadsheets (work!).
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
Guessing this belongs here too:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... udPX3r6iU0
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... udPX3r6iU0
English landowners have stolen our rights. It is time to reclaim them by George Monbiot
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
Today's Grauniad? Good spot CM - Monbiot makes some superb points. With all this going on anyone would think there's a conspiracy to storm the ramparts taking place .
Last edited by RIP on Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My God, Ponsonby, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
The sign outside the asylum is the wrong way round.....
"At least you got some stories" - James Acaster
Re: UK right to roam campaign
Apologies thenorthwind, I see your post about their reply on this topic covers a lot of what I was thinking when I posted this ^. Complex thread. I can imagine the representatives of cycling putting themselves across well, I'm less confident that the PR side of the campaign benefits from our inclusion. Esp if RTR opens up access for us automatically. I suppose that point will come out anyway so there may be nothing to lose.jameso wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:25 pm I wonder if the end result if successful may be something we'd benefit from (^ that Q there), but could (politically/PR-wise) hinder if part of it from the start. I mean, MTBs common image now of trail-smashing Enduroists on e-bikes with 3" tyres wearing red shorts and full-face lids.. it might not help help at the superficial level. Then there's the 'trail-builders'. I could understand a deliberate avoidance of mentioning bike access.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
James - I think the Welsh proposals were more about reducing the distinction between footpath and bridleway along the lines of "If it can be ridden (on horse/cycle) then there is no reason to prevent that." and thus opening up more of the existing RoW to bikes/horses rather than a generic right to roam as per Scotland. Not sure if it's been kicked into touch or just parked up because of the current Covid palaver.
It may have got lost because of the General Election in December - any bill in transit through parliament is abandoned - https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... over-bills.
It may have got lost because of the General Election in December - any bill in transit through parliament is abandoned - https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... over-bills.
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
No need to be! I'd like to think I'm not a grammar-nazi either, but I thought some capital letters would be the least I could expect in a long-form email... especially now I find out the writer is a published author!Cheeky Monkey wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:30 pm Northwind - sorry, I'm such an old fart and am not a fan of self appointed grammar-police but that reply was just a bit too "yoof"
Re. "Who Owns England", you have to laugh at the polarised reviews in the mainstream press: https://booksinthemedia.thebookseller.c ... ns-england
The Guardian: 5 stars, "what a hero", to paraphrase
The Daily Telegraph: 1 star, "a catastrophising Left-wing polemic imbued with parodic student-union chippiness, determined to see conspiracy at every turn."
The Sunday Telegraph: 2 stars, "a chilling insight into the mindset of a neo-Rousseauist and a foretaste of a socialist government’s attitude to property if a certain celebrity allotment holder ever seizes power."
I digress
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
Oh lord I'm horrified to say it but this has almost captured my issues so far:
I will persevere and see where the whole book gets me. By way of contrast I found things like Bike Nation and The Secret Barrister absolutely compelling. Ooooooh, look at me virtue-signalling
Still, regarding the horrifying notion of being aligned with the Torygraph - even a broken clock's right twice a day... with parodic student-union chippiness ...
I will persevere and see where the whole book gets me. By way of contrast I found things like Bike Nation and The Secret Barrister absolutely compelling. Ooooooh, look at me virtue-signalling
Last edited by Cheeky Monkey on Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UK right to roam campaign
Also no need Complex indeed. It's a difficult one - to try and add a voice for responsible access for mountain biking to this, at risk of alienating people who would otherwise support it? Or to quietly support it sans-cycling provision and hope it opens peoples minds to access issues and paves the way (not literally ) to greater cycling access.jameso wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:51 pm Apologies thenorthwind, I see your post about their reply on this topic covers a lot of what I was thinking when I posted this ^. Complex thread. I can imagine the representatives of cycling putting themselves across well, I'm less confident that the PR side of the campaign benefits from our inclusion. Esp if RTR opens up access for us automatically. I suppose that point will come out anyway so there may be nothing to lose.
Allowing cycling on footpaths as proposed in Wales is a much more sensible (does anyone really want to ride a bike across pathless moor and bog? Oh wait... wrong crowd, don't answer that ) and hopefully attainable goal. Maybe we should just butt out? (A rhetorical question for debate, not a suggestion.)