Map reading.....info

[summittoppler]

TBH I'm signed up for the event next week and despite having the GR's I don't feel part of the vibe as like I said above, I don't know how to use a Garmin.
Yes I've plotted on a map but when everyone else is using devices my thinking is that I'll look too old skool getting a map out.
So instead of following a line on a screen I'll just be following JC's wheel

[lune ranger]

BB events with no GPS?

200 might be fun

You'll be banning radios and power meters next

[Asposium]

Unfortunately there is a lot of vitriol on the internet directed at the use of GPS, almost as if one isn’t doing things right if not using a map and compass.

I usually ignore such discussions as the perpetrators are fairly stuck in their ways.

When I first started doing trail quest (anyone remember Polaris) would use a map and map board, there was no need to ban GPS as they didn’t exist.

I do have a compass around ....somewhere

I had hoped boners would be somewhat more open minded.

[RIP]

"I still find getting the bigger picture easier with paper due to the massive 'screen size' " - agree with you there Lune. There's something sensuous about a paper map as well - like a book is much more pleasurable than a kindle (whatever one of those is ), and an LP is more pleasurable than some streamed music. Also agree with Stu that GPS etc seem to be causing an unlearning of The Skills. I'm not an adherent of electronic en-route navigation either - I think it encourages a "head down" attitude rather than a head up one, and it's all too easy to slavishly follow that pre-set line rather than engaging one's curiosity and serendipity.

I'm certainly open-minded about it personally, they're interesting tools. However, I'd offer that minimising distractions from gizmos, whilst riding, encourages a truly open mind . Obviously if you're leading a party in a whiteout, an open mind is the least of your problems and one would be carrying whatever helpful equipment was available.

But of course each to their own as ever, and this discussion is one of those with an infinite number of views from an infinite number of people.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Plenty will have maps Jeff and I'd bet that 70% of folk worked their routes out on paper before coverting it to gpx. At times like this, a paper map can be worth its weight as it's so much easier (given the large screen option) if you need to deviate from your initial plan or just fancy seeing 'what's down there'. I know you can do it on a gps but I don't find it anywhere near as easy given the scrolling involved and the much smaller overview.

I had hoped boners would be somewhat more open minded.

I think they are. From what I've read, no one is saying you shouldn't use a gps, simply that before venturing into the hills you should learn how to read a map and navigate from it ... that applies whether your carrying a paper map, gps, phone or following stars and the moss on trees

[Alpinum]

Please tell us old gits what we can do to help you out and not cause future problems for the mountain rescue teams?

I'm sure you remember the tragedy behind Arolla?
The guide was an old git.
He rejected the use of GPS and/or sat comm.
7 dead. As we know now the drama could have been avoided.

It goes in both directions.

I agree that folks going outdoors should learn how to read a map and navigate (reading the map is only a small part of navigation), just as much as how to use a GPS correctly.

A few on here have stated how they know how to read a map and use a compass. Because they once learned it...

When was the last time you had to go by bearing (no track, no visible sun, just proper thick fog and flat terrain, eg. with devil dikes or crevasses or quick sands, whiteout) for many hours? Many hours by which there was not a single landmark and the horizon looked the same in every direction?

I have absolutely no illusion about how f*cking difficult navigating in a whiteout in mixed terrain is because I do it multiple times a year in different terrain/countries and am always amazed how much attention you have to pay and how slow it gets when sticking with paper maps and compass. I'm doing this so I stay trained, but usually would go by GPS in such cases.

Do 20 somethings know how to read a map?

Do you know how to navigate?

[ScotRoutes]

In sub standard visibility and dubious terrain, especially on the mountain tops, I'd rather be using a GPS than a paper map. Time/speed is often of the essence to avoid potential tragedy. Inevitably, we never hear stories of how accidents were avoided because folk were using a GPS - who and how would you even begin to measure those?

I learnt my initial navigation skills through the Scouts, the the Air Cadets and then at Glenmore Lodge. I reckon. I've been well ahead of my peers at every stage and that there's nothing new in only a minority of folk having them. Those routes still exist for those who want.

The availabilty of Apps has though enabled some folk to get into trouble, hoping to navigate with the sort of bsdic mapping provided by Google which doesn't show important topographic features. That might have led to an increase in the number of folk being caught out but I'm not aware of an overwhelming increase in accident/call-out rates.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'm sure you remember the tragedy behind Arolla?
The guide was an old git.
He rejected the use of GPS and/or sat comm.
7 dead. As we know now the drama could have been avoided.

It goes in both directions.

I agree that folks going outdoors should learn how to read a map and navigate (reading the map is only a small part of navigation), just as much as how to use a GPS correctly.

A few on here have stated how they know how to read a map and use a compass. Because they once learned it...

When was the last time you had to go by bearing (no track, no visible sun, just proper thick fog and flat terrain, eg. with devil dikes or crevasses or quick sands, whiteout) for many hours? Many hours by which there was not a single landmark and the horizon looked the same in every direction?

I have absolutely no illusion about how f*cking difficult navigating in a whiteout in mixed terrain is because I do it multiple times a year in different terrain/countries and am always amazed how much attention you have to pay and how slow it gets when sticking with paper maps and compass. I'm doing this so I stay trained, but usually would go by GPS in such cases.

While there obviously are different levels and degrees of 'navigation', I think John was simply trying to highlight the seemingly growing problem of 'cluelesness' within the UK - something which appears to be an increasing problem for the rescue services so I believe. We shouldn't forget that it doesn't start and stop with navigation skills either but also general hillcraft, even the basic stuff that many of us here will likely take for granted.

.... to save anyone from having to read back through the entire post, can I just confirm that no one gives a f*ck what type of map you carry - it's about your ability (or lack of) to use it as none, whether paper or electronic are of any use if you can't. It just appears that there are a number of people, maybe an entire generation who have become so reliant on technology and its magical powers that no input is required from themselves

[benp1]

You can see how it happens though. The OS maps app is very easy to use, so you can follow a path and it will show you where you are and which way you are heading, it'll show you which way you're facing and therefore help you go for a walk

It always amuses me that the advice when heading into the hills is to take a map and compass, when most people don't know how to use it

The OS maps app really is very easy to use. If you run out of data or signal I don't know what happens unless you have the maps downloaded or saved offline

The phone is much quicker and easier to use than a proper GPS, although I use my Garmin on the bike as I don't want the phone on my bars getting a beating

[Lazarus]

i think the main point is the medium that displays the map is irrelevant it is still map reading and I think a GPS has a number of advantages [ and some disadvantages] which are
OK in the rain and dark, shows exact location, route freely available/easy to follow /note when you are wrong..
Disadvantages being needs power, small screen may break

Personally I take a GPS unit , phone with GPS routs and back up on it - power would last two days as it has a big battery, paper maps/sections of the route[ great for starting a fire at the end of the days camp*
IMHO a paper map s great when walking as you can study it but a lot less useful on a bike where a GPS is a far superior option as you cannot stare at the map and i often only vaguely know where i am [ which is good enough on a well defined path

My kids can read a map and can use a compass as I taught them. However i felt a bit daft as they asked why I did not use the gps - like when my primary school taught me to write with an italic true ink nib pen in the late 70's - even then no one was using them and I think maps will likely end up the same way.

* I dont

[ScotRoutes]

It just appears that there are a number of people, maybe an entire generation who have become so reliant on technology and its magical powers that no input is required from themselves

Put down that Daily Mail.

When I was growing up and starting to explore I was very much in the minority in being able to navigate using a map. Have things actually changed much?

[Bearbonesnorm]

When I was growing up and starting to explore I was very much in the minority in being able to navigate using a map.

But in the good old days, if you wanted to continue exploring, you had little choice but to learn the skills of navigation. These days, technology has lead some people to believe, it's simply an option reserved mainly for the geeky and over-zealous.

Have things actually changed much?

Given that many people seem unable to find their arse with both hands - maybe

[Lazarus]

change is inevitable - there was time before we had maps ,so maps was a change [ for the better], rather than just exploring and drawing your own map as you went. Even sea voyages required a usable timepiece so that was a change etc,

I very much doubt our forefathers, if given the option of a map or GPS, would chose map so its not surprising that we are doing the same. Will the next generation be unable to use maps ? I doubt it with D of E and the like but the number will get smaller

That said i agree that if you explore the outdoors its pretty foolish, if you cannot rely on your own map reading skills, to get you out of trouble in an emergency.

[mechanicaldope]

When I was growing up and starting to explore I was very much in the minority in being able to navigate using a map.

But in the good old days, if you wanted to continue exploring, you had little choice but to learn the skills of navigation. These days, technology has lead some people to believe, it's simply an option reserved mainly for the geeky and over-zealous.

Have things actually changed much?

Given that many people seem unable to find their arse with both hands - maybe

I'm not sure you're right. This may apply to a casual day tripper but I find it hard to believe that most people who are even remotely serious about the great outdoors wouldn't learn some basic map reading. I don't include being able to navigate successfully in a whiteout in this.

I'm 38 and can do this, I bet there are people on here younger than me that are much more proficient.

[Bearbonesnorm]

change is inevitable - there was time before we had maps ,so maps was a change [ for the better], rather than just exploring and drawing your own map as you went. Even sea voyages required a usable timepiece so that was a change etc,

I'm not anti-change, I have a gps and do use it. The point is that to use a gps, you still require a knowledge of maps and how to read / understand them. Having gps doesn't mean that we don't have maps, we probably have more maps in more hands than ever ... just less understanding of them.

This may apply to a casual day tripper but I find it hard to believe that most people who are even remotely serious about the great outdoors wouldn't learn some basic map reading.

I believe it is the casual day trippery types that the John was implying in his original post and I agree, those who take being outdoors with any degree of seriousness will no doubt have an idea about map reading / navigation. As you say, not in extreme conditions but enough to navigate from A to B and back again.

[whitestone]

I don't know if it's still the case but to get a ship's masters licence it used to be the case that you had to be able to navigate using "old school" methods, i.e. chart, compass and sextant in the event of all the electronic nav aids failing.

I'm certainly not agin the use of GPS - I've two GPS units plus the one in my phone - in the case of the Oregon I'll use it to follow a predefined route (either one of my own making or something like the BB200) but in the case of the 520 it's just a means of recording ride data (which is another way of saying I haven't figured out how to put maps on it yet ).

Someone asked about use of sat-nav in cars: generally no unless it's somewhere I really haven't been before and then it's usually only the last bit. Heading down to the Winter event a couple of years ago we were on the M6 and there was a warning about an accident on the M56. Out with the road atlas and figured out an alternative route down to Oswestry, I then turned on the phone's sat-nav to see what it would come up with: at first it showed the route we would have taken via Chester and Wrexham but as soon as we hit the slip road of the alternative route it reconfigured and actually chose the same route I'd done. When a car passenger I'll often have the atlas on my lap and will "tick off" features such as bridges as we pass them - the correct answer to "Where are we?" is never: "err ..."

That re-routing according to circumstances is both a strong and weak point of GPS systems, as in the above it's very good for alternative routes avoiding traffic jams and accidents but once off the road network then (at the moment) it's not so good. Last year I scratched on the HT550 at Ben Alder Cottage. I knew, from studying maps, that the easiest way back to the start was to head to Corrour. To get there involved a bit of downhill hike-a-bike to gain a stalker's track, total distance of less than 20km. Ask one of the mapping programs to choose a route and it's 45km! Obviously the routing algorithms can only use what they know about (or what they have been told is legal) but it does go to show that you need to apply some nous to whatever system you use.

If I were a guide and working in the Cairngorms (as an example) I'd have lots of escape routes loaded in to a GPS unit just in case anything went wrong, I'd then use whichever was appropriate to the conditions - wind direction, avalanche risk, state of party, etc. As Colin says, when time is of the essence just use the quickest method.

[Scud]

At least having sat-nav in cars means that if you're driving to a new city and looking for a specific road you don't have to stop at a garage as you get close and buy an A-Z red book, ending up with a collection for towns and cities you may not visit for another 10 years..

[johnnystorm]

I suppose what I am asking is.....
Do 20 somethings know how to read a map?

I love using my GPS over paper maps when out but the planning is always done on paper maps or/and memory map

Do 30, 40, 50 or 50 something's know either, outside of your circle our outdoorsy mates? Probably not!

Probably a higher proportion of 20 somethings can as 25% of them will have done D of E, GCSE Geography or joined a club at college/Uni.

For the first few BB events I used to print out all the routes on paper and then stopped when I realised I didn't use them at all. Probably because if I got lost and my GPS and my phone both failed I'd have the kit to sit it out until daybreak and then press on until I hit a road and take it from there.

[johnnystorm]

I almost always set Google Maps into driving mode, even if it's a route with which I am familiar. It's saved me (and my customers/passengers) hours in avoided delays due to traffic volumes, accidents and weather incidents.

Yep, I use Waze (also owned by Google, they wanted the user location/speed data) all the time. Getting unnecessarily stuck in traffic or nearly crashing from trying to read an (out of date?) Atlas isn't anything I'll miss.

[psling]

I actually mentioned to someone the other day that the WRT would probably be much more popular if you removed the planning / navigation element and just handed out gpx files for people to follow ... maybe there should be two options?

Interesting point Stu. IMO one of the probable reasons for lack of map reading skills is because people want everything given to them on a plate these days. They want their routes given to them as a download onto a gadget that will then guide them on their (very precise) adventure.
Actual reading of a map and understanding the information available from a map can be done from whatever medium - paper, lap top, pad, smartphone, gps. Creating a route is another step further and requires the information on the map to be analysed and converted into a usable trail. This demands a lot more time and effort to be put into it and a greater need to be able to read and understand maps and how they relate to the ground. Not having to do this because a route is presented as a ready-made electronic trail diminishes those skills and the need to learn those skills.

The WRT as you have created it Stu encourages riders to learn and develop these map reading / route planning skills. Giving out a gpx route for the event does totally the opposite!
There is always the option for some people to join a group or leader and I'm sure you occasionally get quietly asked to supply a route for the event anyway (and probably the one joining all the dots too)



[All the above should not detract from the aspect of being able to identify where you are and how to get to safety in an emergency / temporarily disorientated situation nor the pleasure people get from just reading maps at home in front of the fire for the hell of it ]

[whitestone]

+1 Peter

Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

[Blair512]

At the grand old age of 32 I have to admit I have no idea how to use a map and a compass, I have up until now solely relied on plotting a route into my garmin and following the line on the screen. It is however something that's bothered me for quite a while so I have spent my birthday money from last month to go on a NNAS bronze level navigation course. Looking forward to being able to navigate using a map rather than just using them for route planning, they're much more tactile than poking at a GPS screen, as Reg says like the difference between a book and a kindle!

[summittoppler]

....people want everything given to them on a plate these days. They want their routes given to them as a download onto a gadget....

I often get asked for the GPX for a particular route I've ridden. Some peeps are either incapable or too lazy to study a map/the web for ideas on where to ride. Im pretty sure a fair few of us have spent many days wasted hoping that route you thought was doable whilst planning at home turned into a bogfest and never to be visited again. However when a new route pays off it's great. Some folk just need to get out there and explore (or get lost as they can't read a map).

[Bearbonesnorm]

I often get asked for the GPX for a particular route I've ridden. Some peeps are either incapable or too lazy to study a map/the web for ideas on where to ride. Im pretty sure a fair few of us have spent many days wasted hoping that route you thought was doable whilst planning at home turned into a bogfest and never to be visited again. However when a new route pays off it's great. Some folk just need to get out there and explore (or get lost as they can't read a map).

What Jeff said

[summittoppler]

...What Jeff said

Oo a positive, thanks Stu!

Great thread btw