The kit's got lighter ... but are we still touring?

[TheBrownDog]

Trying not to get involved in the what is touring what is bikepacking debate because I've got my own interpretation that Im comfortable with and Im not sure I could be arsed having to justify it with people who have more considered opinions and rational arguments.

But ... when I was in my 20's all I wanted to do was load my bike up and go see stuff. I took two career breaks (not that we called it that in the 1980s) to go for big long rides in far flung places. When I met people, if they asked, I told them I was travelling. That's because I would sometimes stop for 2 or 3 weeks, take a job selling peanuts on a beach or something, and never once worry about mileage or my next destination.

Now, for me, bikepacking and touring are quite different. BP is short 1-2 nights out with minimal kit and off-road. Touring, that's mostly road, panniers, racks and not really giving a stuff how heavy it all is because while I may have to push it every now and then, I never have to carry it.

Reg, I need you to come over the top on this with a gentle esoteric rant that diverts attention from my position on this issue so I dont get into another blue.

James, I picked up my Arkose from the Maidenhead store on Thursday. It's superb - honestly, its the bike I wanted 30 years ago - and the team at that store are simply brilliant. I love the way you've engineered the downtube/BB shell interface to give that nice big user-friendly gap to ease replacing the internal gear cables and brake hoses. Superb. Ive had 3 bikes with internal routing and cable change day was always a nightmare. I've never seen this approach before and even if you developed the idea from somewhere, the execution on the Arkose is really cool. Credit to ya fella.

Cheers
Tim

[psling]

Trying not to get involved in the what is touring what is bikepacking debate because I've got my own interpretation that Im comfortable with and Im not sure I could be arsed having to justify it with people who have more considered opinions and rational arguments.

To my mind, the beauty of this site is that you don't have to justify anything and, IMO, nobody expects anyone to justify their opinion/interpretation/point of view in a more considered or eloquent manner. We're just a diverse group of people with some similar interests

Now, for me, bikepacking and touring are quite different. BP is short 1-2 nights out with minimal kit and off-road. Touring, that's mostly road, panniers, racks and not really giving a stuff how heavy it all is because while I may have to push it every now and then, I never have to carry it.

For what it's worth, your interpretation seems considered and rational and makes a lot of sense!

[jameso]

James, I picked up my Arkose from the Maidenhead store on Thursday. It's superb - honestly, its the bike I wanted 30 years ago - and the team at that store are simply brilliant.

Very pleased to hear that, on both points, thanks. Tim's the manager at Maidenhead, good bloke and if the shop reflects him you'll be alright there.

The BB cable exit - it's a good way to do it huh? Credit goes to BMCs Phonak bikes c.2008 Since superceded by flashier methods but like BSA to BB30 BBs, moving on isn't always progress..

Must get a Chilterns ride fixed up this Autumn. Would like to hear more about those touring/travelling trips.

[lune ranger]

Interesting points. I used to call it off road touring when I used panniers and bikepacking now because everyone else does,.
My mindset is no different. I crossed Iceland a number of times on a 26er with 2.1in tyres and 4 small panniers. I never found my kit stopping me, I probably just had to push a little more than now or had to ride harder.
I like the modern kit. It's my bike that makes the difference though not my bags. A 29+ opens up a lot of trails.
What I miss about panniers is how easy it is to mount and dismount your kit and having somewhere to grab on the frame when the going gets pushy.

[benp1]

I think there's a huge overlap between the two, so it's hard to split them out neatly

For me the following types of category split them out
- where the bike/kit doesn't limit you from where you want to go
- lightness of packing - bikepacking forces you to carry less, though it doesn't need to be in bikepacking bags, could be in a rucksack or similar. Panniers can encourage you to take stuff just in case, see the point above

Touring for me is generally on the road or light tracks/trails. Bikepacking can be the same, but is often more off road in nature or on bikes that aren't necessarily designed as a tourer

I can't imagine bouncing down a rocky trail with racks and panniers. It would be more fun with no kit, but bikepacking (mindset/style) means I'm only limited by my own talent

My trips are short, 2-3 nights max (as I need to balance time with the family and work too), so doesn't feel right to call it a tour!

[RIP]

I'm going to be a real spoilsport and sit this one out Tim, you guys look to have things nicely under control on this one . I know, that's a real first for me .

Reg "just back from a couple of days of what I'm reasonably sure were, er, bikepacking" Perrin

[MuddyPete]

This seems to be the only corner of the internet where pretty much everyone agrees on pretty much everything .

[jameso]

Reg, Pete, been riding in the Hitchin area again the last few weekends. Last weekend Nat and I did a route based on that 2 day loop but used a hotel in Hitchin. Great riding on those byways. Defo touring.. She was on an ebike also. No idea how that skews it all. Not even self-supported if we camp out : )
Thanks for the intro ride

[RIP]

Nice one James - guess the main thing is you enjoyed yourselves . Hopefully you didn't wear the missis out debating the finer touring/bikepacking points during the romantic hotel fine-dining experience!

Might do something myself round there in November (starting from Welwyn), will shout to all Chilterners if so. It does have a surprisingly remote feel despite so close to Stevenage doesn't it?

R

[jameso]

Ha .. Reg, she wouldn't have much care for what I was on about : ) it gets called a 'bike tour' and that's about all the bike chat that happens.

It's a nice area, so easy to overlook and a good lesson in why it's always worth trying a place out (+1 for OS maps on paper also). I've been trying to make a route that fits a certain criteria for a couple of years now - 100 miles on lanes and byways without using a single road with white lines up the middle - and I think going across to this area may provide the solution.



(before there was the TNR there was this idea but the route has been hard to finalise in this area. Makes it all the more fun as a reason to explore though. Hmm maybe one profanity too many on that flyer in hindsight )

[Bearbonesnorm]

That's ^ ace

[voodoo_simon]

This weekend I cycled up to a wedding, stayed the night in a hotel, went to the wedding and then cycled back the next day.

Was that touring or simply just using my bike as transport?

[Gummikuh]

I think everyone is getting a little silly, what matters is you get out on your bike and enjoy going longer than usual, whether you stay in a youth hostel, bothy or a palatial 3 person tent doesn't really matter, if you need it you carry it, who can say what anyone needs/wants?
I use a pair of very small front panniers on a rear tubus rack and I prefer the weight lower down, especially like them when taking them on and off, you may have different needs, they were more than happy doing the WRT. Ortlieb seem to be thinking along the same lines, and panniers have been fine for the past hundred or so years.
The term bikepacking risks this hobby turning into a niche pastime, where you must have the right bag or risk the wrathe of the cool kids.
I enjoy a cup of tea at odd times and I carry a trangia and water/milk. but hey trangias are not cool either, but I am not about to waste money on a new lightweight stove just because.

[Bearbonesnorm]

The term bikepacking risks this hobby turning into a niche pastime, where you must have the right bag or risk the wrathe of the cool kids.

I totally disagree. The sheer diversity of bikes, kit, clothes and people is what makes it so good. From what I can tell, there really is no 'uniform' or right / wrong, simply different views, ideas and opinions.

panniers have been fine for the past hundred or so years.

Not really, the pannier as we know it today, wasn't invented until 1971.

However, I couldn't agree more with this:

what matters is you get out on your bike and enjoy going longer than usual, whether you stay in a youth hostel, bothy or a palatial 3 person tent doesn't really matter, if you need it you carry it, who can say what anyone needs/wants?

[jameso]

the cool kids.

.. are using panniers and racks now anyway : ) (on the front mostly)

With all due respect to us all, I think you only need to go to an average bikepacking gathering to see it's not 'cool'. Fun, sociable and worth a weekend of your time, yes - but cool, nah. No probs with that either, we can all can fit in.

[RIP]

Totally agree with Stu's totally disagree. Hope I'm not getting my neg and pos mixed up

"everyone is getting a little silly" - hmm, perhaps. But personally I'm glad they/we can be, and I'd way rather it was that than "everyone is getting a little serious". Because then it WOULD be niche and cliquey. And life's too damn serious as it is, just look outside.

'Wise is (s)he who knows when to be silly and when to be serious" to paraphrase somebody or other from ages ago.

[Gummikuh]

I totally agree with everything said,
I was surprised bicycle panniers are such a new thing.
The point I was trying to make is it really matters not what way people carry or the things they need, and sometimes we overthink this to the risk of not riding because we need the latest bestest lightest thingamajig. I think we must all be silly sometimes (I know I am) and I am happy to chat about stuff all day long and I know what works for me is not the same of others, and we may never agree on that.
I am just curious as at the lack of love for panniers amongst the bikepacking fraternity? Is that the defining line one must not cross?
Touring/backpacking/camping on my bike, are they not pretty much the same thing?
I sometimes talk to people who would like to do the "bikepacking thing" but who are put off when they see how much some of this stuff costs, when really they just need to have a look in the garage and use what is out there.
Don't get me wrong, all this frame mounted baggage is perfect for some bikes, but it is sometimes not everything, that is my point.

[jameso]

I am just curious as at the lack of love for panniers amongst the bikepacking fraternity? Is that the defining line one must not cross?
Touring/backpacking/camping on my bike, are they not pretty much the same thing?

I'd say they are the same thing, just the mentality or attitude that varies and shapes gear choices. My lack of love for racks and panniers is prob similar to many others, it comes down to weight and reliability, plus I can swap soft packs across 3 or 4 of my bikes / adapt quickly for weight distribution or space needed / remove fully for times when not loaded up (most of the time). Racks can be fairly light and reliable but if I'm only carrying 3-6kg of additional kit there's no need for the empty luggage to be >2kg.

On road it's different, I'd use a minimal rack. Been thinking a tubus fly Ti with a light mount and guard support would be nice.

[ScotRoutes]

I think I have the answer. It came to me in a Eureka moment when I was cutting the grass.

Regardless of what you take and how you carry it, you are either racing or you are touring. It's a simple binary choice.

[thenorthwind]

you are either racing or you are touring

I've always said this of road cycling. You see a lot of roadies (in fact I know some of them) who ride uncomfortable bikes with inappropriate gearing because they're "racing" when really they're touring, if only for a single day.

By this definition, all my bikepacking is touring, but I'm fine with that.

[ctznsmith]

you are either racing or you are touring.

What about commuting or using a bicycle for utility purposes/everyday transport?

Or is that a really short tour?

[sean_iow]

Commuting is touring... unless you meet another commuter, then it's full on racing Don't make the mistake I made once of overtaking a fat bike on the road only to discover it was electric and somehow also had full assist even at 25mph +

[thenorthwind]

What about commuting or using a bicycle for utility purposes/everyday transport?

Fair point, it should really be "you are either racing or you are touring... when using a bike for fun."

[ScotRoutes]

you are either racing or you are touring.

What about commuting or using a bicycle for utility purposes/everyday transport?

Or is that a really short tour?

Ah - I was meaning for leisure purposes. Otherwise, it's just transport.

[RIP]

I think these 'philosophical' threads are as important as the 'facts' threads. Every 'view' is fair game whether silly or serious or both at the same time. They help us to think further about the how and why of bikepacking, and I'd say that enhances the experience and pleasure.

But as with any philosophy, edges are blurred and not clear cut so there cannot be a definitive 'bikepacking' and 'touring' split. Maybe a tending to one or the other, with different aspects more strongly or weakly. I'd humbly offer that 'racing' is much more clearcut dealing as it does with times, distances and mainly fixed routes. Is racing part of bikepacking? I'm open to robust responses here (fair game) but I'd say only in as much as presumably the lighter you are the better your 'result'. The 'wandering/serendipity' aspects of BP don't appear to apply to racing.

Bikepacking must bring us back to a 'frame of mind' backed up or supported by certain equipment choices. Lots of excellent views on this already above obviously. For me, bikepacking:

Strongly tends towards wandering/tramping, trying to minimise fixed plans or aims, having a mindset that facilitates whimsical route changes ('wonder what's up there?') and interactions ('that person looks interesting'). Being me I love absurdity and incongruity as well but I wouldn't go so far as to claim those as BP 'givens' - non-BPers might with considerable justification (in their eyes) level those characteristics at us of course. There's a rebellious nature about it too. I'd argue that touring and racing don't lean as strongly to those things. Something I need to work on more is having a total lack of plan to start with. I came pretty close last Feb jumping on a train to Macclesfield and it ended up being one of nearest to BP I've got.

Strongly tends towards a bike that can handle 'any' terrain (me first offroad bike was a 1985/6 'Dawes Cougar ATB' - All Terrain Bike, not 'MTB' although it got me up (and down!) Helvellyn nae bother). The more it can do this the more serendipity you can follow - road, track, moor, cave, helterskelter.. etc. As we all say, any bike will 'do' but a 'BP' bike will do more. Racing bikes are more specialised and touring ones maybe in the middle.

Strongly tends towards low weight. Lighter equals further and easier. Hence the search for ever lighter gear eg 22g (8g!) stove. Yes I know the lightest is the one left at home . A drybag on the bars is much lighter than racks and panniers.

Strongly tends towards minimal kit rather than racing or comfort (touring) kit. Light/less kit reduces mental baggage as well as physical - less worry/faff. Personally I aim for lightest possible but what some may term 'still fully functional home-from-home' eg taking a mat rather than not. I will take cooking gear and water 'processing' gizmo so I can fulfil the 'wander/serendip' aspects with no restrictions - unlike perhaps touring which frequently omits the water processor.

Strongly tends towards sleeping anywhere at all at any moment. Kit has a big part to lend - eg a flat tarp can be used as shelter almost anywhere. Earlier above points dictate kit as light as possible for the conditions.

Strongly leans towards minimal cost once out there. Unfortunately 'minimal cost' only slightly lends itself to light kit initial purchase.

May tend towards taking the least, or indeed no, food/water and obtaining as and when. This, for me, tends to provide a more 'open' experience. The usual discussion of whether 'taking all' v 'obtaining all' is self-sufficient I'll offer out .

There's the frequent question of bike to camp or camp to bike . I've posited before that I think it's an infinitely sliding scale different for each outing, because the outings are always different. A recent trip with SteveM showed us biking to a camp/bivi spot because, as above, bikes are the light/serendipitous/flexi way to get to camp via a variable route, and (possibly)wild camping keeps the bikes light and allows 'stop anywhere'. I can't point to exactly where on the sliding scale we were though - but about 49/51 .

In fact biking and wildcamping are two faces of the same thing - bikepacking. In the same way that light is both a wave and a particle, we have a bike/wildcamp duality. I'll call it the Quantum Theory of Bikepacking :).

Got a bit carried away there as usual, hardly a two-second tweet (whatever that might be), but that's fair game on an open forum I reckon. There you go Tim, you've roped me in after all :)

R