Drum roll ... WRT GR.

[JohnClimber]

Luckily we get our WRT tee shirt before we head out because if the weather is nice I might not be aiming for any of the grid refs...

Well it's a type of ride thing and it will be in Wales so does it still count?

[Wilkyboy]

Okay, I'm new to bikepacking, although I've done a fair bit of long-distance (road) cycling and I've bivvied out before. Is there a rule of thumb for travelling speed and climb rate that people work to? At the moment my estimates are out in the "more than 48 hours" region for only part of the route, so I'm wondering whether my assumptions are even vaguely realistic, whether I've bitten off more than I can chew, etc.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I work on 10km/h as a moving average.

[NorwayCalling]

130km with 2500m of accent on all types of surface and in rubbish weather = moving time of 10.5 hours - when you take into account cafe stops, picture stops etc real time is much longer (this was day 2 of last years WRT for me, solo in the rain and wind...)

Generally for the WRT - I work on the principle of 100km with 2000m of ascent is around 10 hours. Half the elevation gain and you get up to around 15kph or more. This works for the average person who is "out to ride" rather than "on a nice bike ride in the hills" but as has been said, 10 kph is "about right".

Hope this helps.

[NorwayCalling]

Just a quick caveat to say 10 kph works for surfaced tracks i.e. fire road, lanes, earth/rock/gravel tracks that you can actually see and that sort of stuff.

If you are following "bridle ways/paths" where there is no path (check route with Goggle earth first!) then this average speed can drop quite a bit (can take 3 hrs to cover 6km if it all goes wrong in the mist and hill fog/bog/tussock fest is not uncommon).

[Wilkyboy]

Those are interesting data points, thanks

What I'm struggling with at the moment is the monumental scale of the landscape — just routing between Stuart's GRs, I'm getting distances and climbs in the region of 300m per 10km, so 3000m per 100km. I'm currently a Flatlander, living in Cambridge, and on a hilly 200km road ride (audax) at the weekend I managed to get around in under 10 painful hours moving for 3,300m elevation gain (not anywhere near Cambridge!), but I doubt I could get close to even half that with a fully loaded mountain bike off-road.

So far I've been working on 16-20 (slow/fast) for road sections and 8-12 (slow/fast) for off-road, with the option of 4kph for hike-a-bike, which I think I've mostly routed around anyway. And I'm adding on an hour for every 360m or so climbing, similar to what walkers do, ISTR. I think it's the climbing that I may not have right — some sections of as little as 5km work out at nearly an hour, even on road.  For example, from Bearbones HQ to the Dylife turn off the B4518 is 5.6km on-road with about 200m of climbing, which I work out at 54 minutes, which seems a bit long. Does anyone have a ball-park real-world figure for that section, which I could use to calibrate this a bit? As well as 10kph and 12.5kph ... maybe I just shouldn't bother with the climbing calculation and just assume 10-12kph and be done with it.

At the end of the day I'm only trying to put a limit on my ambition — I'm used to riding 200-400km in a day, just not off-road carrying 10kg of stuff, and not anywhere quite so relentlessly hilly! As this will be my first, I don't expect to "succeed" in anything except having a bit of fun, but I also get some weird pleasure from the planning and debrief

[whitestone]

Checking some of my longer rides, they vary in moving speed from 9kmh to 15kmh. Depends on whether I'm "racing", surface, weather, how heavily laden the bike is, etc.

Only done the road from BB towers up to Dylife once after last year's Bearstock and going steady (read as "had a hangover") we took 35mins. Here's the Strava bit https://www.strava.com/activities/629030842 - it's all road or forestry track.

I'd mark out a route that you fancy, but have some short cuts if you find you aren't going as fast as you thought you would be.

Edit: Here's another ride from the area last week https://www.strava.com/activities/922457268 much different ground as things were very damp and it was pretty windy so in places I was reduced to walking on the flat as it was more energy efficient.

[In Reverse]

maybe I just shouldn't bother with the climbing calculation and just assume 10-12kph and be done with it.

I'd say that would be best.

You'll never be that far from a main road if you need to cover some ground a bit quicker. Plus you might end up "wasting" a good few hours in a pub, and where would all the speed calculations be then?

[JohnClimber]

Wilkyboy, don't stress about getting each and everyone of the grid ref's.
You don't have to get them all if it's going to take you into riding through the night and no enjoying it for what the WRT is.

I've just plotted a dream (of mine) ride (if the weather is kind) ride of 94 miles spread over the 3 days with 11,000 ft of ups and downs which passes many towns/villages for supplies, with a great bivi spot and a bothy for the 2nd night and doesn't hit a single one of Stuart's grid references.

[Wilkyboy]

Checking some of my longer rides, they vary in moving speed from 9kmh to 15kmh. Depends on whether I'm "racing", surface, weather, how heavily laden the bike is, etc. ... Here's the Strava bit ...

Many thanks!

Plus you might end up "wasting" a good few hours in a pub, and where would all the speed calculations be then?

Noted. Does anyone have the GRs of all the facilities en route?

Wilkyboy, don't stress about getting each and everyone of the grid ref's.
You don't have to get them all if it's going to take you into riding through the night and no enjoying it for what the WRT is.

I've just plotted a dream (of mine) ride (if the weather is kind) ride of 94 miles spread over the 3 days with 11,000 ft of ups and downs which passes many towns/villages for supplies, with a great bivi spot and a bothy for the 2nd night and doesn't hit a single one of Stuart's grid references.

Cambridge is a beautiful city and a splendid place to bring up kids, but Cambridgeshire is desolate for the soul! I intend to maximise my contact with my favourite Wales, where I grew up (although quite a way from this area), and recharge the batteries. And I like a ride with a purpose — even if it's just a selfie at as many of the GRs as possible But I'm not aiming for every single one — that would be silly (and I'm nowhere near fit enough).

My current route is just under 200km with 5,000m of climbing — 120 miles and 16,000ft — and visits 17 of Stuart's 26 GRs. It passes a couple of bothies, but the outdoors bit is where I'll be sleeping, not least because apparently I snore Anyway, I'm hoping for at least one clear night with no light pollution to see the Milky Way, and at least one atmospheric day to sit out over a view and ponder things. And to ride my bike. Anything else will be a bonus

[Chew]

maybe I just shouldn't bother with the climbing calculation and just assume 10kph and be done with it.

This is what i'd work on. Overall it'll work out as a good average across different surfaces. 10kph is also easy to work out in your head. If you know its ~30k to a certain location its ~3 hours

Overall i'd work to a route thats 150-175k long with 3,000-4,000m of climbing.

Mid Wales is usually ~25m/km. If you're going over that i'd have a second look. Generally once you have the height, try and keep it for as long as possible.

Dont stress to much about a 'perfect' route. There isnt one and you'll end up changing it as you go along.
I've never ridden a WRT with the route I had pre-planned

[Mr Arbuckle]

Hi All, New to the forum and to the WRT but not to bikepacking, done a few trips in uk and a 9 day swiss trip last summer, I may be being a bit ambitious but I've mapped a couple of routes kind of ignoring the GR's a bit, one is about 165 miles with just under 20,000ft elevation and the other is about 190 miles with 25,000ft elevation, I do know Welsh terrain as lived in north wales for many years and as a teenager I rode around the Clwydian ranges regularly.

Lets see how much of that I actually get done by the time I get back into pennant on Monday afternoon. still not sure at this stage whether to use fat bike or XC bike, all gear is about 4.5kg and will mainly be in a pack on back so easy to lift bike over hedges, walls and gates etc or even push up the steepest of hills if I get lost. I decided that was the way to go for me after my swiss trip when I had about 20kg of gear loaded on fat bike which already weighed 15kg and this was a struggle on some hike a bike sections.

Anyways, really looking forward to this event and having a chat to everyone at start and along the way as we all inevitably bump into each other on the trails and in cafes and pubs.

[Richard G]

Have tweaked my route a fair chunk to make it a little different to the Cambrian Trail in places. Has meant I've lost a little elevation for the first day, but to be honest with the little addons to bag squares I reckon my day one route was a little bit on the brutal side anyway.

What I'll probably do is add a couple of extra little loops to take in some more distance if I find myself at certain points ahead of scheduled (as well as shortcuts when I inevitably find myself massively behind schedule!).

[Wilkyboy]

Hmm, BikeHike gives me 6,500m of elevation-gain, but RWGPS gives 5,400m of climb for exactly the same data. That's just under 25m/km overall, so Welsh-enough without being too-Welsh, and the extra 1000m over 200km I think will go unnoticed, if it's there at all and so long as it's not all at once!



My current route visits many GRs as far south as Llyn Brianne and over to the Caban-coch before returning to BBHQ, but none of the outliers. Now to do the full 26-GR route ...

[Mr Arbuckle]

route 1 elevation.jpg (21.59 KiB) Viewed 4201 times

here's my longer route elevation. I didn't use any GR's but I suspect I may very likely come close to a few by chance.

[Mr Arbuckle]

route-20104285-map-full.png

(201.57 KiB) Downloaded 2209 times

and this is the route for that elevation, may decide to do more or less nearer the time and weather dependant etc. Might just even ride around mid wales for 2 1/2 days aimlessly then find my way back to Pennant on Monday afternoon.

[psling]

Pre-planned aimlessness, the backpacker's oxymoron.
It's what I'll be doing.

[Wilkyboy]

Is it just me, or does it look like someone was putting the boot in with those GRs?!



ps. I won't be riding all this, not in 50 hours at least.

[Lawmanmx]

and i (as usual) have no route and no plan

Oooh, but i do still have a hand drawn map by Stu from last years Bearstock, i'll pocket that (just in case)

[adjustablewench]

I shall be working on my route later, not sure how I'll get on trying to find something doable in mid Wales but I shall have a go!

[Bearbonesnorm]

Oooh, but i do still have a hand drawn map by Stu from last years Bearstock, i'll pocket that (just in case)

Well, that there fine work of cartography should get you 2 - 3 miles at least

I shall be working on my route later, not sure how I'll get on trying to find something doable in mid Wales but I shall have a go!

If you want any ideas or whatever, just give me a shout ... promise, no death-marching

[benp1]

I'm halfway through plotting the points on 1:25k maps but I then need to spread them out on the floor and line them up and picture a route. I might have to do the same with a 1:50k

I don't suppose anyone has plotted the points onto something that I can easily view? I thought there was one in an earlier post but it came up with a wierd looking route instead

I managed to do in for the WRT a few years ago but can't remember what tool I used!

[Zippy]

I just dropped Stu's GR into a spreadsheet and converted to Lat/Long and into a kmz file - which google earth will read, as will most other GIS tools

(Yes, I'm dead lazy!)

[AlexGold]

I don't suppose anyone has plotted the points onto something that I can easily view? I thought there was one in an earlier post but it came up with a wierd looking route instead

I managed to do in for the WRT a few years ago but can't remember what tool I used!

Try here: http://www.gpsies.com/map.do?fileId=wdwxaxvigbkhjmbw

[benp1]

That is excellent, thank you!