I just can't do it ...
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- whitestone
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Re: I just can't do it ...
The Arkose was one of those under consideration when I bought my Crox de Fer, very similar bikes though I think the Arkose can take slightly wider tyres. (A bit of searching reveals a maximum of 42C for the CdF and 45C for the Arkose). I think that with a better set of handlebars, possibly something like the Woodchippers, then the CdF will be much more capable off-road, as it is, with stock handebars it's fine on canal tow paths and fire roads but a bit tricky to control when things get a bit lumpier.
Back in the day they would have been what was called "a bike".
Messing around with gearing, tyres, wheels, etc., is fine for us aficionados especially if we've a stock of spares built up over the years but it's not something Joe Public is likely to do (even though many are happy to have summer and winter tyres for their cars).
Back in the day they would have been what was called "a bike".
Messing around with gearing, tyres, wheels, etc., is fine for us aficionados especially if we've a stock of spares built up over the years but it's not something Joe Public is likely to do (even though many are happy to have summer and winter tyres for their cars).
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry
- Bearbonesnorm
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Re: I just can't do it ...
Very true Bob, which makes it a real shame that often manufacturers and the buying public follow fashion rather than building / buying something more suited to their needs. It's a difficult situation for all and I wonder, had James designed an Arkose similar to how mine's built, just how many (few) would have been sold.Messing around with gearing, tyres, wheels, etc., is fine for us aficionados especially if we've a stock of spares built up over the years but it's not something Joe Public is likely to do (even though many are happy to have summer and winter tyres for their cars).
Cycling must be fairly unique in some respects because the public want and sometimes get, exactly what the pro's have. If you take motorcycle racing as an example, the factory bikes are test beds for new tech and ideas but what the public receive is a distilled version of the stuff that works in an everyday enviroment. The manufacturers know that the man / woman in the street hasn't got the skills required to cope with what the racers ride ... right I'm drifting now
May the bridges you burn light your way
- whitestone
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Re: I just can't do it ...
I thought most of the racing motorbikes weren't street legal anyway - no idea really as I don't follow motorsport.
Just how would you pitch something like the Arkose or Stooge? "Here's an adventure bike with wheels/tyres suitable for gravel/fire roads. If you want to turn it into a road bike then just buy a set of road wheels, if you want it more mountain bike orientated then buy some MTB wheels". Not an easy sell when most people view bikes as "toys" and £300 is therefore expensive so spending £200 on another set of wheels is crazy.
Just how would you pitch something like the Arkose or Stooge? "Here's an adventure bike with wheels/tyres suitable for gravel/fire roads. If you want to turn it into a road bike then just buy a set of road wheels, if you want it more mountain bike orientated then buy some MTB wheels". Not an easy sell when most people view bikes as "toys" and £300 is therefore expensive so spending £200 on another set of wheels is crazy.
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry
Re: I just can't do it ...
Someone once told me that one of the reasons pro road riders have carbon bikes is the public want to buy what the pros ride. You could build titanium frames that come in under the uci weight limit but a ti frame can't be knocked out in china for £50 like a carbon copy of a pro bike can so it would make selling cheaper versions to the public uneconomic. Don't now how much truth there is in it but interstitially when I watched the Pearl Iumi tour series race on the Island in 2015 the Madison Genisis team had both carbon and ti bikes and it didn't seem to affect their performance. Maybe (partially) the pros get what the manufactures want to sell?Bearbonesnorm wrote:Cycling must be fairly unique in some respects because the public want and sometimes get, exactly what the pro's have.:
Adventure without risk is Disneyland - Bikemonger
- Bearbonesnorm
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Re: I just can't do it ...
That's my point Bob. You can't buy the same bike, yet you can buy the same bike as ridden in the TdF by someone with muscles in their spit and legs like trees, then wonder why it doesn't suit your needs.I thought most of the racing motorbikes weren't street legal anyway
I'm not saying that you'd ever sell any. What I was saying, was, it often seems that manufacturers build bikes that would probably suit the end user more if they were put together a little differently differently - gearing being an example. I know what you mean about the end of the market that views bike a toys but I think in this instance, we're not really talking about them given that a Stooge or Arkose frame set is over £300 and in the case of the Stooge, nearer to £500.Just how would you pitch something like the Arkose or Stooge? "Here's an adventure bike with wheels/tyres suitable for gravel/fire roads. If you want to turn it into a road bike then just buy a set of road wheels, if you want it more mountain bike orientated then buy some MTB wheels". Not an easy sell when most people view bikes as "toys" and £300 is therefore expensive so spending £200 on another set of wheels is crazy.
May the bridges you burn light your way
Re: I just can't do it ...
Eeh wen I wer a lad we didn’t ave new bikes. Me Dad took me to the Bike Shop which was actually a shed full of used bikes. The guy would look at you and delve into a pile of rusty bent and otherwise scrap bikes pull one out and say come back next week.
Sure enough the next week there was a shiny new looking Rudge with solid link brakes and an ancient Brooks saddle. Steel mudguards remember them? The paint was black with red coachlines on all the tubes and mudguards. Single speed as three speed was too new and derailleur something foreign and therefore suspicious. Sigh.
Sorry just reading above had a sudden flashback to a simpler time.
I’ll get my medication.
Sure enough the next week there was a shiny new looking Rudge with solid link brakes and an ancient Brooks saddle. Steel mudguards remember them? The paint was black with red coachlines on all the tubes and mudguards. Single speed as three speed was too new and derailleur something foreign and therefore suspicious. Sigh.
Sorry just reading above had a sudden flashback to a simpler time.
I’ll get my medication.
Zazen - nothing happens next this is it.
Re: I just can't do it ...
That's not the same though...Bearbonesnorm wrote:That's my point Bob. You can't buy the same bike, yet you can buy the same bike as ridden in the TdF by someone with muscles in their spit and legs like trees, then wonder why it doesn't suit your needs.I thought most of the racing motorbikes weren't street legal anyway
You'll struggle to buy a MotoGP bike apart from the RC213 aside
You could buy a superstock bike. It's more about being street legal than giving people what they should/shouldn't have
If it's legal, and they can sell it, they will - think of most professional level sports kit (e.g. watersports)
Re: I just can't do it ...
I have an Arkose 2 from 2015, the one with hydros and a 1x10 with a bar end shifter
I thought it was complete genius, but it's since been dropped in that spec - presumably because it wasn't so popular?
For commuting I mainly use the top 6 or so gears. But the bottom range is good for proper steep bits (like Swains Lane in London) or for when I have a kid on the back and need to get up a hill. I haven't taken it properly offroad yet but it's coped with everything I've asked it to so far (road, fireroad, track, paths, towpaths, gravel)
(it is running with Marathon+ tyres which is probably the main barrier to grip offroad, in the wet anyway)
I thought it was complete genius, but it's since been dropped in that spec - presumably because it wasn't so popular?
For commuting I mainly use the top 6 or so gears. But the bottom range is good for proper steep bits (like Swains Lane in London) or for when I have a kid on the back and need to get up a hill. I haven't taken it properly offroad yet but it's coped with everything I've asked it to so far (road, fireroad, track, paths, towpaths, gravel)
(it is running with Marathon+ tyres which is probably the main barrier to grip offroad, in the wet anyway)
- whitestone
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Re: I just can't do it ...
Yeah, the "toys" example was a little extreme but as much to make the point as anything.
Look at bikes built up to the mid 1980s and almost without exception they have a horizontal top tube (I saw an early Giant MTB the other week and it just looks so odd now). The tale I heard was that when bike production moved to the far east the factories looked at the design and went "we have to make eight (or whatever) sizes per model?" as a result the sloping top tube design came into focus since they could now cover the size range with just three or four sizes. So the bike industry has already solved a similar problem.
Re: gearing. Many years ago I treated myself to a fully custom built road bike - Reynolds 531, the works. I asked about suitable gearing, no problem. I ended up with 52/42 on the front and a six speed cassette (Shimano SIS had just appeared so it's that long ago) 12-24. For the Lakes!
Look at bikes built up to the mid 1980s and almost without exception they have a horizontal top tube (I saw an early Giant MTB the other week and it just looks so odd now). The tale I heard was that when bike production moved to the far east the factories looked at the design and went "we have to make eight (or whatever) sizes per model?" as a result the sloping top tube design came into focus since they could now cover the size range with just three or four sizes. So the bike industry has already solved a similar problem.
Re: gearing. Many years ago I treated myself to a fully custom built road bike - Reynolds 531, the works. I asked about suitable gearing, no problem. I ended up with 52/42 on the front and a six speed cassette (Shimano SIS had just appeared so it's that long ago) 12-24. For the Lakes!
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry
- Bearbonesnorm
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Re: I just can't do it ...
Exactly ... and if you could, it would be of very limited use to 99.9% of people. However, you can buy a 'replica', something which looks similar and may contain certain aspects of the design but as you say, it's not the same thing. Legality doesn't really come into it, you can make anything comply with road regs easily enough.You'll struggle to buy a MotoGP bike apart from the RC213 aside
May the bridges you burn light your way
Re: I just can't do it ...
It's the internet, I'm going to disagreeBearbonesnorm wrote:Exactly ... and if you could, it would be of very limited use to 99.9% of people. However, you can buy a 'replica', something which looks similar and may contain certain aspects of the design but as you say, it's not the same thing. Legality doesn't really come into it, you can make anything comply with road regs easily enough.You'll struggle to buy a MotoGP bike apart from the RC213 aside
Putting a MotoGP bike onto the road is a problem for 2 reasons -
1 - you need to factor in the things you need to make it street legal in all the places it would sell - lights, tail piece etc. But this is relatively straightforward
2 - it's blooming expensive
The latter is the killer bit. The two that spring to mind are the Ducati Desmosedici and Honda RC213V
They are monster expensive, you could buy yourself a very nice car for the amount they cost.
The bit that does compare to the analogy above is that you could buy the 1 litre superbike version, which technically is a road legal superstock racing bike, for much less. It's above the capabilities of most people still and is still fast as hell
The bit that really compares to the analogy is that sportsbike sales are declining and adventure bikes and naked bike sales are gaining market share - you can do a good chunk of what a sports bike can do with those, plus a whole load of other stuff that a sportsbike doesn't do well
- whitestone
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Re: I just can't do it ...
I see what you mean about monster expensive: the Ducati is £40k
A lot of cars/motorbikes/bikes are way more than anyone might need - how often have you come up against the limits of a bike? Far more likely that your skill level fails beforehand.
A lot of cars/motorbikes/bikes are way more than anyone might need - how often have you come up against the limits of a bike? Far more likely that your skill level fails beforehand.
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry
- Bearbonesnorm
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Re: I just can't do it ...
Now you see Ben, I never mentioned GP bike until you did, I simply said 'motorcycle racing' and 'factory bike' and as we know, the factories put out a lot of teams beside GP.
Anyway, we've probably drifted enough ... but
Anyway, we've probably drifted enough ... but
Does that perhaps go someway towards proving that the 'Adventure trend' goes way beyond bicycles?The bit that really compares to the analogy is that sportsbike sales are declining and adventure bikes and naked bike sales are gaining market share - you can do a good chunk of what a sports bike can do with those, plus a whole load of other stuff that a sportsbike doesn't do well
May the bridges you burn light your way
Re: I just can't do it ...
The Honda RC213V is over £130k!whitestone wrote:I see what you mean about monster expensive: the Ducati is £40k
A lot of cars/motorbikes/bikes are way more than anyone might need - how often have you come up against the limits of a bike? Far more likely that your skill level fails beforehand.
The problem with bikes vs cars, is that the risk margin gets quite high on a bike as you're only on 2 wheels. You could deal with a slide in a car OK, they're quite fun in fact, on a bike it's not OK or fun!
I've never come up against the limits of my bike. It has nearly as much power as my car and I could ride everywhere in 1st gear. I doubt I'd come up against the limits of a slow bike to be honest, my skills on a motorbike are about the same level as my skills on a mountain bike!
Re: I just can't do it ...
Agreed, i'll shut up nowBearbonesnorm wrote:Now you see Ben, I never mentioned GP bike until you did, I simply said 'motorcycle racing' and 'factory bike' and as we know, the factories put out a lot of teams beside GP.
Anyway, we've probably drifted enough ...
Yeah - adventure is a general trendBearbonesnorm wrote:Does that perhaps go someway towards proving that the 'Adventure trend' goes way beyond bicycles?The bit that really compares to the analogy is that sportsbike sales are declining and adventure bikes and naked bike sales are gaining market share - you can do a good chunk of what a sports bike can do with those, plus a whole load of other stuff that a sportsbike doesn't do well
- soft roader cars (which stay on the tarmac)
- camping/festivals
- short ride (i think that's a swear word here?)
- improving access to the outdoors
Re: I just can't do it ...
The whole "ride what the pros do" is also facilitated by UCI having the regs around stuff being on general sale...
http://www.ridemedia.com.au/features/uk ... t-of-gold/
http://www.ridemedia.com.au/features/uk ... t-of-gold/
Re: I just can't do it ...
Don't forget your Crikey, how much kit and your piss bottlebenp1 wrote:Yeah - adventure is a general trend
- soft roader cars (which stay on the tarmac)
- camping/festivals
- little ride out (i think that's a swear word here?)
- improving access to the outdoors
Re: I just can't do it ...
Thanks Ben, glad you like it. I rode one of those into the ground, loved it. It sold about 10-15% of the volume of the 2x10 version at the same price that followed it though, despite the 1x10 bike having hydros. Bar-end shifters were a sticking point, oddly for me since 1x10 stick-shift works really well. Old wisdom etc again I guess, bar-enders are for tourers, can't reach them etc.I thought it was complete genius, but it's since been dropped in that spec - presumably because it wasn't so popular?
What that bike did do (also the Ramin 1 and 3Plus, or the Croix de Fer did for Genesis) is make a statement about how we see bikes and what we're prepared to invest in, but they can't hold out that long if there's limited shop floor space and other bikes inc our own sell better. There is a new version of that bike (sort of, different layout tho) coming with road plus tyres, a sort of M5 Touring type of bike but a very un-BMW rrp. The company (industry?) still values these ideas as long as we buy to realistic demand and understand it's a side-line. Gearing for that model is also a debated point ..
ATK .. UCI regs .. another reason to ignore formal category racing as an influence :)
Yes, see 'Ben Fogles Lives in the Wild type shows, there's 2 now. 'Cabin P0rn' sites. Lifestyle Jeeps doing well. It backs up what I've long thought about the silliness of our society, that our default is not to earn and consume as we do and Adventure™ as a sales thing reflects that, but that's well past OT and MotoGP and into navel-gazing..Does that perhaps go someway towards proving that the 'Adventure trend' goes way beyond bicycles?
Re: I just can't do it ...
Crikey, how much
piss bottle
short ride
piss bottle
short ride
Re: I just can't do it ...
HA!
I had no idea that function existed here! Genius! What other words are there? (I know this is OT!)
I had no idea that function existed here! Genius! What other words are there? (I know this is OT!)
Re: I just can't do it ...
I surprised myself with how much I liked the bar end shifter. I'm regularly impressed by how clean and crisp the shift is, still (nearly 2 years and thousands of miles later)jameso wrote:It sold about 10-15% of the volume of the 2x10 version at the same price that followed it though, despite the 1x10 bike having hydros. Bar-end shifters were a sticking point, oddly for me since 1x10 stick-shift works really well. Old wisdom etc again I guess, bar-enders are for tourers, can't reach them etc.
There is a new version of that bike (sort of, different layout tho) coming with road plus tyres, a sort of M5 Touring type of bike but a very un-BMW rrp.
Hydro brakes were the big draw for me
Any more info on the new bike?
Re: I just can't do it ...
? Crikey, how muchthat function
Edit
Guessing game for the others now, must not get distracted, tea break is over..
Remember XT thumbies? 'ScrACK' into gear .. lovely things.I'm regularly impressed by how clean and crisp the shift is,
? piss bottle
Edit Bingo!
? Casquette
Ha, missed one?
Re: I just can't do it ...
I think I might have been to blame for this one. I used the word when I said one of those turned up in the post - generated comments saying it sounded like a container for urine - just didn't realise it had been changedjameso wrote: ? piss bottle
Edit Bingo!
There I was cycling along in my Crikey, how much jersey, heading out on a short ride, when I realised I was thirsty and took a swig from my piss bottle
Re: I just can't do it ...
Friend of mine has one of those, lovely bike. He's about the last person you'd expect to have one- usually on something full suss and long travel. Rides it with flats, which always amuses me for some reason.I rode one of those into the ground, loved it. It sold about 10-15% of the volume of the 2x10 version at the same price that followed it though, despite the 1x10 bike having hydros. Bar-end shifters were a sticking point, oddly for me since 1x10 stick-shift works really well.
I think the only reason he's been riding it less is that the hubs habe nearly rattled themselves apart and he is wilfully mechanically ignorant. I need to grab it off himand fix it, it makes me cry.
When my old commuter got nicked i wpuld have had the singlespeed version but i think it was released/i saw it shortly after i built a second hand roadrat up.
I'll be honest, the bar end shifter would probably have put me off- i know they work well, but i had an old road bike while i was at uni that came from my uncles garage and I just couldn't get on with them. Ended up swapping it for something with flat bars and thumbies.
Re: I just can't do it ...
I don't know if you like pictures if your bikes being ridden, but here you go anyway...
https://flic.kr/p/pYLDQV
https://flic.kr/p/pYLDQV