Electric cars - impressive.

[RIP]

great post V

[Hamish]

Whilst the solution to reducing the environmental impact of cars may be to move to electric cars, I am not sure the best solution to moving people around is a always a car.

We have to reduce our reliance on cars. EVs may be a bit better but current private car usage is too high to be sustainable and electric cars still cause congestion, waste, noise, ruin communities and render urban areas less liveable.

Our addiction to private motorised transport has taken years to develop and weaning us off it is going to take time and will be painful for some. But I think it will have to happen.

It also occurs to me that it is regrettable that EVs are mimicking conventional cars in that they are tending to be heavy high performance things. The car manufacturers must be loving this new marketing opportunity. What would have been good is if the new breed of smaller, lighter and cheaper quadracycle type vehicles were being pushed as hard. They provide mobility at a lower cost and with less environmental impact. I understand that they are popular in other places but I guess they are less profitable.

[BigdummySteve]

Electric car are definitely impressive, in had a Tesla pull next to me on the motorway. I was in the middle lane doing 70 and it was held up by someone in the outside lane, as soon as the other car cleared the thing just disappeared, no getting into it’s stride like even a ‘super car’ it just fecked off.
As a long term eco hippy ( I read ‘Hothouse earth by John Gribbin 30 years ago and studied environmental science for three years with the OU) it can’t come soon enough. If you look at the science it could already be too late, yes industry is going to have to share the pain, yes we are going to have to consume less meat and learn not to throw away our possessions every five minutes but electric vehicles are a major start. Talking of electric vehicles, particularly expensive ones used mainly by the better off, while we’re pushing electric cars and banning petrol and diesel wouldn’t it be prudent to re-nationalise the train system? Run them not for profit but as a utility, run them all on electrified tracks,put freight back on the railway, undo Beechings destruction and let’s get proper guards vans back so we can have end to end transportation without resorting to motor vehicles. If we reopened all the branch lines and made it affordable the car would become a far less attractive mode of transportation.
I think the end of internal combustion vehicles is going to come sooner than we think, we’ll reach a tipping point where running a petrol station will no longer be a viable business, thus you will buy an EV just because it’s more convenient.
The madness of our collective behaviour over the last several decades will I believe looked at by our ancestors with incredulity, did they really put water in plastic bottles then burn fossil fuel to transfer then to shops then throw the bottles away?

[ledburner]

hi guys, I hope electric cars work for you.

I think electric (battery car) are a technology cul-de-sac. if Elon musk hadn't thrown billions at it,
- Would everyone else be on board.?
(Also can't he spell 'Leon' his name correctly?
so obviously can't be trusted )

The disruption of moving to a new technology, where it is too slow to refuel (hours rather than minutes) and an the infrastructure is not fully yet in place,That is crazy.

Lord Bamford (JCB), seem to offer a clear vision and proposes and invested in his solution of
Hydrogen (ICE) Internal Combustion Engines (as opposed to fuels cells) as scalable and more affordable alternatives..

https://youtu.be/19Q7nAYjAJY

and from autocar...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/indu ... combustion
thought provoking... stuff

[jameso]

Hamish, I agree.

The future of car use -



The future with electric cars -



EVs may reduce city pollution, seem to reduce Co2 output overall if run for enough miles / over time, but I think we need better public transport integration with all forms of private vehicles so that we can make less wasteful or space-needy choices based on where we live, how we live etc.

I'd love to drive a small EV onto a Channel Tunnel-type train from London up to Scotland, or have pool cars available at main stations. Yet we can't even get trains with good 'just turn up' bike carriages on so many lines in the UK.

Read somewhere recently that a great infrastructure is one where people regularly choose public transport over private based on the quality of the experience and convenience, not affordability or social perceptions. Basically, where the rich use public transport.

The argument about "what to do with a car battery at the end of it's life?" - there will be a huge industry developing electricity storage for homes and factories - and for these the energy density and power output is less important than for a car, where range and power is essential. So car batteries at the end of their life will be recycled to power homes etc, which will be charged using solar or wind or water power. It does all make sense for the next 10-20 years at least.

If we all had EVs that take (say) 7 hours to charge and we left them docked/plugged in for 12 hours a day, could they be connected to act as a mass power bank capacity grid in the way that the internet connects servers for processing ability, would there be any benefits to that capacity being available?

Just read Sean's post that might suggest it could be a benefit?

** Because the grid cant store electricity, and having too much out of power stations causes an issue, there is a variable tariff which encourages use when they have too much. This will go into negative so they pay you to take it, the battery bank is intelligent so he actually gets paid by SSE to charge his van up!

[ledburner]

If we all had EVs that take (say) 7 hours to charge and we left them docked/plugged in for 12 hours a day, could they be connected to act as a mass power bank capacity grid in the way that the internet connects servers for processing ability, would there be any benefits to that capacity being available?

yes it would even out fluctuation in availability in green power, wind - solar etc..
it might cause a few flat batteries.
But it would keep a lot of vehicles off the road

[ledburner]

I'm please to anound the laundry is being done with 50 % renewable electric.
the rest by sustainable wind & solar power.
we hung it on the washing line

[redefined_cycles]

Seen Guy Martin: The World's Fastest Electric Car??
Watch it here on All 4: https://www.channel4.com/programmes/guy ... ectric_car

Thanks Andy... I just came calling to look for this. Do I need to subscribe... thanks

[techno]

Seen Guy Martin: The World's Fastest Electric Car??
Watch it here on All 4: https://www.channel4.com/programmes/guy ... ectric_car

Thanks Andy... I just came calling to look for this. Do I need to subscribe... thanks

You need to register. But it's free.

[BigdummySteve]

Just finished watching that, gotta love Guy Martin. For those who don’t know of him before the tv stuff, he makes Chuck Norris look like a big girls blouse, after his infamous TT fireball crash I think he said something along the lines of ‘Aye, it did get a little warm’

[Al]

Does anyone else have a problem with how quiet they are? I’ve nearly been flattened a couple of times out riding - made me appreciate how much you rely on the sound of approaching vehicles when you ride.

[ledburner]

Does anyone else have a problem with how quiet they are? I’ve nearly been flattened a couple of times out riding - made me appreciate how much you rely on the sound of approaching vehicles when you ride.

agreed, at least the horse (original sustainable tea n as port clop).
I thought this was flagged up a few years ago.. sir they only bleep if reversing. I suppose driving lights should have 'solved' that issue... it its not (flaggedin) regulations - it not implemented...

[Bearbonesnorm]

RE: noise, they had an issue with that at the TT during the Zero (electric bike) races ... I believe they solved it by sticking a bit of card on the swinging arm that rubbed on the wheel*

Also, with regard to renewable or 'green' energy ... I'm pretty sure there's absolutely no such thing. Following the wind turbine saga where many were erected but not connected (tis true, grants were paid to put them up but they weren't required to generate), the latest thing would seem to be biomass. Here, that appears to mean cutting all the forests and burning the wood. Apparently, that's sustainable which seems weird given how long the trees will take to regrow. Again, it probably has much more to do with hand-outs and grants than it does to do with trying to find a viable solution. As an aside but related, I saw lots of adverts recently about how to cut your energy bills but not a single one mentioned turning the lights off or putting a jumper on (Reg's point from earlier I believe). We'd have less requirement to generate if people learnt to consume less ... but that probably won't do shareholders profits much good.




*this bit may not be true.

[lune ranger]

RE: noise, they had an issue with that at the TT during the Zero (electric bike) races ... I believe they solved it by sticking a bit of card on the swinging arm that rubbed on the wheel*

Mostly when an EV is running at driving speeds you can hear them coming easily enough by the road noise.
They are pretty stealthy when slow speed manoeuvring but EU regs required that they make a noise when doing so. My Leaf makes a high pitched sound.


Also, with regard to renewable or 'green' energy ... I'm pretty sure there's absolutely no such thing.

Please spare us the Daily Mail inspired bull sub standard Stu.
Mismanagement of some schemes in the past doesn’t need to nullify the potential of the technology.

[Lazarus]

.with regard to renewable or 'green' energy ... I'm pretty sure there's absolutely no such thing

I am certain you are wrong. I don't know why you would even say that.its in the same ball park as claiming the earth is flat

Trees are replanted and if say I have 1000 of them and burn 20 a year and they take 50 years to regrown then it's sustainable just scale up to a 1000 forests etc.
Seriously why have you decided all renewables are not true based on a few claims of grants for turbines ? (news to me any references ?)

I agree we should all consume less but don't understand your rejection./objection.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Please spare us the Daily Mail inspired bull sub standard Stu.
Mismanagement of some schemes in the past doesn’t need to nullify the potential of the technology.

How is that bull-sh1t? and do you also mean 'mismanagement of some schemes in the past and present surely? They're dropping the forests and burning them as I type ... explain to me how that is a source of sustainable energy. I'm really not trying to nullify attempts to produce green power, I was simply trying to highlight (a) how easy it can be to simply accept the label 'they' shove on things without questioning and (b) wouldn't using less power be a massive step in the right direction?

Trees are replanted and if say I have 1000 of them and burn 20 a year and they take 50 years to regrown then it's sustainable just scale up to a 1000 forests etc.
Seriously why have you decided all renewables are not true based on a few claims of grants for turbines ? (news to me any references ?)

You misunderstand me - I didn't say it's not true and I haven't got a tinfoil hat. My point was that, all energy production comes at a price and you get nothing for nothing. Just because something is 'green' doesn't mean that there aren't some unpleasant side effects to its production, hence me saying "no such thing". Re trees, the wood from 1000 acre forest won't last long in an incinerator. Yes, the trees will be replanted but it'll be another 30-50 years before they're ready to be harvested again ... not really a sustainable way to generate power is it?

Yes, I appreciate I could have phrased it better

[lune ranger]

Of course you could have phrased it better, you said there is no such thing as green energy- that’s bullshit.




Panda

[Rob S]

There is no green energy. But some methods are greener than others.

Pretty much everything humans do, in the modern world, has a negative impact on the earth.

Not bullsh1t, if you are a green energy producer, you can get a more favourable export tariff if you have more generating capacity. Even if those machines are not exporting.

I'm pleased about the green energy revolution, not sure it would have happened without all the subsidies though.

[Bearbonesnorm]

that’s bullshit.

But is it, if all power generation produces unpleasant side effects whether it be a direct result of the generation, the manufacture of equipment required to produce it or the enviromental damage caused by siting?

Anyway, this one's for me

[Lazarus]

not really a sustainable way to generate power is it?

Literally is sustainable as you never run out of trees to produce power as you replace them. Coppicing is hardly new technology or unachievable

[Bearbonesnorm]

Literally is sustainable as you never run out of trees to produce power as you replace them. Coppicing is hardly new technology or unachievable

Yes but I'm really not sure it works when you multiply scale to what's required John? A day to burn but nearly 20,000 times that to replenish, surely it can only be a short lived thing - especially as the vast majority of commercial forests within the UK were planted around the same time.

[Lazarus]

I am sure humans are capable of mismanaging it but its ,at least theoretically, renewable /sustainable where as gas,oil etc are quite clearly not.

We cannot use ONLY biomass or forests for our current * power needs.

* see what i did there

[Hamish]

There is no green energy. But some methods are greener than others.

Pretty much everything humans do, in the modern world, has a negative impact on the earth.

^ this, as they say on web forums…

I’m no expert on energy policy but As far as I can tell, biomass will not solve the problem. It may be a temporary stop-gap lower carbon option but will not replace conventional sources at scale. It will continue to play a part but we can’t rely on it as a way out of our mess.

There are many reasons it’s prominent at the moment but the main one must be that it uses very conventional technology so is easy to get going. In Wales, many of the plantations were planted years ago for reasons that no longer exist, in suboptimal locations and weren’t optimally managed in their earlier years. Hence lots of the substandard quality harvest will go to biomass as it’s low value timber. I may well be wrong but I am not sure that NRW or the big operators will plant dedicated biomass on a large scale when they restock. Thinning and poor quality may end up getting burnt but not the main crop. Now… don’t get me started on what we should be doing in Wales’ uplands re planting and land use… but if we want to capture carbon we can’t burn all we plant.

I think big commercial wind is making a significant contribution to renewable generation. It is tried and tested, cheap and easy to install if you have permission. It obviously has drawbacks that we all know about but it’s here to stay in windy but overcast UK and we need it.

Solar has to be the biggest hope worldwide and will have a role here… but we don’t have the space and as much sun as we need for it to dominate.

I think one of the main issues is that we can’t make progress to cut green house gasses if all the new renewables that are brought on line just take up increased demand. The challenge as I see it is to keep the lights on whilst taking on the extra demand of all the new EVs and heat pumps, cutting demand overall and phasing out non renewables. In short our overall demand for energy must go down.

Another challenge is obviously adapting a grid that was designed for centralised and fairly constant production to take multiple and intermittent inputs from all over the place. Storage is key and there seem to be some really interesting and brilliant (but almost bonkers) ideas for that being explored at the moment.

[Lazarus]

I wondered why they dont just use wind to pump water to an upland lake and then use it for on demand hydro - a very simple and environmentally friendly battery .

[Bearbonesnorm]

I wondered why they dont just use wind to pump water to an upland lake and then use it for on demand hydro - a very simple and environmentally friendly battery .

No need for a separate power source John. It could happily create its own for pumping duties.