Bikepacking on UKH

[whitestone]

UKH = UK Hillwalking if you weren't aware.

Markus Stitz has written a piece for them https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/ ... intro-9994

[Bearbonesnorm]

Is UKH a Scottish thing Bob. Piece seems to reflect that idea very much

and

Useful link and websites? ... and I thought we were more useful than that?

[whitestone]

Is UKH a Scottish thing Bob. Piece seems to reflect that idea very much

and

Useful link and websites? ... and I thought we were more useful than that?

UKH is the hillwalking arm of UKClimbing so in theory UK rather than Scotland. I think the Scottish slant is as much to do with Markus and his site bikepackingscotland

Did wonder why there was a link to bikepacking.com but not here.

[Cheeky Monkey]

Skimmed it. Seems to have missed the fundamental point that you need very little special and just going out with whatever bike you have and a bit of sleeping gear is fine. It's nothing special and you don't need all the fancy poor show. However, that wouldn't fit with the gear-buying frenzy that is bikepacking.

Recommends a Spot as well. -1 for me.

Guess I'll not be on the cheery-Friday thread then

[ScotRoutes]

I think it's fair to say that Markus's slant is a bit different to BB. It's certainly more commercial and he seems to be making a living from promoting bikepacking to the "right" audience.

Does he even have an account on BB? Can't say I've ever noticed his posts.

4 of the 5 recommended routes are Markus's creations.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Does he even have an account on BB?

He does Colin and I do 'speak' to him via email every now and then.

I suppose we're akin to that nutty relative that everyone avoids at weddings.

[pistonbroke]

. and I thought we were more useful than that?

To be fair, which is something you don't catch me saying often, the links could have been subbed in after the report by the editor of the website who simply googled bikepacking. I think I'm going soft

[ScotRoutes]

#trampswithbikes

[Bearbonesnorm]

To be fair, which is something you don't catch me saying often, the links could have been subbed in after the report by the editor of the website who simply googled bikepacking.

Very likely Duncan ... and if I did that, I'd not go near us either

[whitestone]

Very much in agreement there Colin. I think Markus did post on here a couple of years ago about a survey by Argyll Council regarding bikepacking, obviously with his Wild About Argyll Trail* in mind.

If it was the editor who added the links then promoting another forum that might take views away from your own (UKC/H have a big set of commercial forums) might not be in their better interest. There is a biking sub-forum on there BTW.

*We did part of the WAAT at Easter and it did feel well put together: if there was a strenuous or technical section it was followed by easy tracks or roads with feeding opportunities not far away and the various loops meant you could shorten it as you so desired.

[pistonbroke]

Slightly off topic but I guess pertinent to the comment regarding Marcus monetising bikepacking. When DaveB's report on the Spanish C2C appeared in the CTC magazine, I received quite a lot of emails enquiring about this year's trip, every single one asked how much I charged for organising and conducting (not guiding) the trip. Different mindset I suppose.

[jameso]

It's certainly more commercial and he seems to be making a living from promoting bikepacking to the "right" audience.

I was about to make a (weak) point about declaring bias/interests more clearly, but if you make a living or income in this way you'd be sure to make good, accessible routes that deserve to be recommended there so why not. Part of me disagrees with commercialising the activity rather than the product, a greater part of me applauds anyone making a living for themselves doing their own thing in an area they're passionate about, so fair dues. Keep sight of where you are among the greater aspect of what the activity or industry is and all's good. There's also the way the activity and product market are linked and I guess I have to have a biased interest there (despite 'packing being about 0.25% of any commercial aspect related to my job).

If it were scaled and more of the country had newbie-friendly routes for bike camping that grew the popularity of it all I think the UK would be a slightly better place. More people doing something positive outdoors, connecting with the environment etc - all the possible negs aside, it'd be a good thing.

[ScotRoutes]

It's certainly more commercial and he seems to be making a living from promoting bikepacking to the "right" audience.

I was about to make a (weak) point about declaring bias/interests more clearly, but if you make a living or income in this way you'd be sure to make good, accessible routes that deserve to be recommended there so why not. Part of me disagrees with commercialising the activity rather than the product, a greater part of me applauds anyone making a living for themselves doing their own thing in an area they're passionate about, so fair dues. Keep sight of where you are among the greater aspect of what the activity or industry is and all's good. There's also the way the activity and product market are linked and I guess I have to have a biased interest there (despite 'packing being about 0.25% of any commercial aspect related to my job).

If it were scaled and more of the country had newbie-friendly routes for bike camping that grew the popularity of it all I think the UK would be a slightly better place. More people doing something positive outdoors, connecting with the environment etc - all the possible negs aside, it'd be a good thing.

My bugbear (if I have one) is that I slightly resent the idea that the whole of our small country should be covered by pre-conceived routes. I do fear it's removing one of the skillsets. I've seen the same happen with the likes of the West Highland Way, Great Glen Way, NC500 etc. Give it a name, promote it and people will come, but they'll miss the fun of making up their own routes. It can certainly be argued that keeping all the muggles in one place makes the rest of the country quieter but, as I said, it's a small country and there can only be a limited space for bikepacking routes that cover hundreds of miles.

[benp1]

I read the article when it came out (I regularly browse the UKC/UKH forums) and also thought it was very Scotland biased, once I'd googled the author I understood why

Re Colin's point, I agree to a point. But for the majority doing a route, is much easier and less effort than planning one.

Planning is part of the fun, but it's also a small minority of people who like that.

It's the same for holidays and outdoorsy trips like walking

[Bearbonesnorm]

My bugbear (if I have one) is that I slightly resent the idea that the whole of our small country should be covered by pre-conceived routes. I do fear it's removing one of the skillsets.

I think this is probably very true but sadly, I believe anyone thinking this way (me included) is in a minority. The example I'd generally use is the WRT, I'm pretty convinced you could double the number of riders if you removed the route planning / navigation element. Some people just can't handle their freedom

[ScotRoutes]

Re Colin's point, I agree to a point. But for the majority doing a route, is much easier and less effort than planning one.

Planning is part of the fun, but it's also a small minority of people who like that.

It's the same for holidays and outdoorsy trips like walking

Absolutely. I realise it's not for everyone and I know that many folk have followed the routes I've published on my blog. My job is in bike hire and transport and the overwhelming majority of hirers are doing pre-planned routes. I'd just like to see a wee bit more imagination

I even considered the idea of promoting a 200km bikepacking route myself after riding it last year but I've not got around to it. It would certainly be interesting to see what it takes to raise something into the public awareness enough that it becomes commonly ridden.

[Matt]

Is UKH a Scottish thing Bob. Piece seems to reflect that idea very much

There's English and Welsh ones

English = UK moderate incline Hillwalking
Welsh = UK sink into the Hillwalking

[Cheeky Monkey]

IMO, continual promotion and popularisation runs a risk of buggering one of the fundamental aspects of BP and that's the "bivvy" bit. The more it gets promoted, profile raised, organised and routed the more pressure on bivvy spots. It's a big old world / country for a bunch of tramps dossing in discrete corners, it'll be a damn site harder when the same spots on popular routes get re-used over and over again.

I'm not elitist or a doomsayer (honest) but BP involves (a perfectly acceptable level, to me) of "trespass". It works when it isn't concentrated (either in terms of numbers at one time or repeatedly over an extended period) and if done sensitively. Hey ho. I'll probably be dead before any of this manifest (or if)

Look at the popularity of van camping. I already get semi-regularly chatted to by Rangers in the Lakes if in a van about whether I'm planning to over-night there (and that it's not permitted). TBH, I kinda agree. There's a place for parking a camper and whilst that glorious view might warm the drivers / dossers soul the sight of the parking spots and passing places full of shiny VWs gets me down a little bit.

Ah jeebus, pass the noose

[jameso]

I'd just like to see a wee bit more imagination

Oh yes, same here, though when time is limited and wider society has such a product acquisition and assured delivery mindset it's no suprise that people consume routes like they do food or phones. I do think that a good intro will lead to finding your own way and many that follow routes also create their own, also that some just like to get 'ticks' of recognised things for a number of reasons. If you were to value that over just doing it for your own reasons, well that's the 'social media' kind of approach I don't have much time for, but each to their own, and I've contributed to some of that in a small way anyway.

I even considered the idea of promoting a 200km bikepacking route myself after riding it last year but I've not got around to it. It would certainly be interesting to see what it takes to raise something into the public awareness enough that it becomes commonly ridden.

Try it, it can be worthwhile depending on how you get your rewards. PR, earnings, sharing route knowledge responsibly, publicity for something, it's just an extension of uploading a route or using heatmaps to search, a different way of saying 'this is a great route'. In a time when we can upload any old meandering crap, taking the time to express a route well somehow or put a name to it is a good suggestion of your belief in its quality, I think. So if that means pre-planned routes are a kind of best-of, they have a valid place. In that respect if I was Markus I'd be making sure the routes really are great, as I'm sure he does.

IMO, continual promotion and popularisation runs a risk of buggering one of the fundamental aspects of BP and that's the "bivvy" bit. The more it gets promoted, profile raised, organised and routed the more pressure on bivvy spots.

Perhaps, and perhaps we all need to look at Evanoui.cc's lead on Leave No Trace ethics promotion, but I don't think the bivi aspect will ever be that popular. Though the touring side will - much of this is simply making touring 'cool' again, not about bikepacking as we see it. ie If I were planning a route for a tourist board or other popularity reasons I'd be encouraging local businesses to cater for riders at the end of the route stages, NC500 style. I know that means it's not BP to many, the touring-bikepacking border line is a wide one imo though (see Stu and I's Arkose trip to Scotland for my take on that tested via Stu's respected views on BP credibility)

[whitestone]

Some interesting points regarding commercialisation. I think there'll always be the honey pot effect and with concepts like the NC500 having a particularly low entry bar they'll be busy especially if they've got the weight of an organisation like Visit Scotland or Argyll Council or whoever promoting them as well. For a lot of people there's a big fear of the unknown, the idea of just making things up as they go along is terrifying. So in the case of LeJog they'll follow a prescribed route - doesn't help that there aren't that many viable routes between the Central Belt and the north of Scotland plus once you get past Inverness there aren't that many roads to choose from - you've a bigger choice on most Barratt's housing estates

Knowing that a particular track is passable when trying to work out a route is always useful and not everyone has great or even good Google skills, there's figures about the percentage who click past the first page of results for example, and if commercial entities fill the first page then people will assume that's how it's done. Somewhere like this site might have the relevant info but it's on page 7 of the results because it's just a comment in a thread rather than in a promotion from a commercial concern.

In a different sphere I'm having to "manage" commercial encroachment on an existing route. It's interesting to see the difference between what's being promoted and the reality: Sir Robert Armstrong's quip "economical with the truth" comes to mind

[Bearbonesnorm]

It's interesting to see the difference between what's being promoted and the reality:

Don't go there Bob - I view that as an almost personal battle.

Reality v marketing: http://bearbonesbikepacking.blogspot.co ... hered.html

[Matt]

Most of my rides are more like the marketing version, might just be down to personal outlook though

[Bearbonesnorm]

Most of my rides are more like the marketing version, might just be down to personal outlook though

Yes, I'm sure they are ... must be the glasses and the tissue taped over your eye that give you that special personal outlook? Oh and the sunburn

[psling]

Sunburn? I thought that was r@pha branding...

[whitestone]

IMO, continual promotion and popularisation runs a risk of buggering one of the fundamental aspects of BP and that's the "bivvy" bit. The more it gets promoted, profile raised, organised and routed the more pressure on bivvy spots.

I think this has already happened on The Sandstone Way in Northumberland with people following a schedule which puts them at point x just as it's getting dark. Bivvies happening randomly aren't a problem it's the drip, drip, drip of any particular spot being used on a regular basis, a bit like someone continually poking you in the same spot. When we did The Sandstone Way a couple of years ago our "leave no trace" included back sweeping the grass we'd been laying on so there weren't two sleeping pad shaped flattened areas.