Selfsupported ethics.

[Justchris]

Help me out. Read a blog recently and something jumped out at me as being against the sort of rules of selfsupported bikepacking racing. Are these ok with you.

1.Is it ok if you were in the GD of the HT550 to phone the chippy in Fort Augustus to see if they had a certain type of food. Say black pudding.

2. Is it ok to then order the food so you don't have to wait as long for it to be cooked.

(Hypothetical situation....)

Cheers.

C

[GregMay]

1. You can phone once the timer starts. It's a chippy, WTF would you be ringing for "Hi, Biker McBikerface here, do you serve chips? Great, I was hoping did. What about Dom Pérignon? No....really? Oh...ok."

2. Same as ringing ahead to book accommodation, technically, yes if you prepaid for it. But again, WHY?

[Chew]

1. Who cares?

2. Sounds like good thinking. As long as that service is an option for everyone else on a commercial basis.

3. Any difference in prebooking a hotel room 50k away to ensure you have a room?

4. If you have an issue with anyone who may have bent/broken the rules. Would it not be best to mention it to Alan privately?

(Hypothetical situation....)

[sean_iow]

I've not competed in it but as an outsider I would say:-

1. Calling ahead about services is research and planning, do it when ever you want but better before the start? Time in the race is better spent riding than phoning around?

2. Any pre-booking is against the spirit of the rules. Want a room then ride to a hotel and ask if they have one. Want some chips then ride to the chippy and see if they've any left. Worried they might of run out by the time you get there, ride faster.

My take is the easiest way to stick to the self supported ethic is imagine you don't have a phone. This is just my opinion as a spectator from reading the rules and following the races, not just the HT550.

[padonbike]

My understanding for accommodation is that you CAN'T book ahead before the event starts e.g. book in Ullapool YH on HT550, but once you are riding on that day in the event and are a few hours away from Ullapool, apparently you CAN ring ahead and book that day.

That's what I understand, but it's not something I've done myself. Ditto food.

You do well to clarify this point.

I'm often confused about grey area of receiving calls / texts from people watching Spottracker at home.
As you can access info from SPOT yourself from web on phone when you have network isn't this the same as receiving same info by text when you are in phone network?
I don't know.

[touch]

1. Calling ahead about services is research and planning.

That's what I was thinking. If you can look up the locations and opening times of restaurants before the race, surely you could look up their menu as well? Unless he means phoning up to ask if they still have stock of one of their normal menu items? I suppose that could be more of a grey area.

[sean_iow]

Having looked on the HT550 website it does say

"No pre-arranged support, which means before you begin your ride - e.g. booking a B&B, arranging to meet a vehicle"

So calling after the start would be allowed. Perhaps I'm interpreting the rules from other events when I think you should ride to the hotel and not call ahead?

I can picture the scene now on the start line when Alan says GO and eveyone whiops out their phones to book B&Bs, order chips etc.

[ScotRoutes]

If you were, say, vegetarian it would make a lot of sense to know before the event if any of your likely supply stops were suitable.

During the event then the clock has started and taking time off pedalling to call ahead is penalty enough?

[whitestone]

1. I wouldn't do it but don't have a problem anyone else doing it. The chippy might have sold the last black pudding by the time you get there. (see 2) If you disallowed this then you wouldn't be able to phone a bike shop to discover if they had a spare part to fix your bike - you'd still have to get there of course.

2. A tricky one since the "rules" on http://www.highlandtrail.net/ say "No pre-arranged support, which means before you begin your ride - e.g. booking a B&B, arranging to meet a vehicle" which implies that you can then book a B&B once you've started. Again I wouldn't do it, my view is that you take things as you find them when you get there, if a faster rider gets the last room then you should have ridden faster than him/her, but accept that that's a stricter interpretation.

When Phil, Ian and I were in the Oykel Bridge Hotel, the landlady said someone had rung through from Lochinver to book rooms at the bothy. We thought at the time that that was against the rules but looking at the above we were wrong. The landlady just went "First come, first served!They're yours!"

Edit (since several people were quicker at typing than me!): Phil - I deliberately went off-grid as it were as I wanted the ride to be me against the route, not me against whoever Trackleaders said was half an hour ahead or behind. Of course at times you are going to be riding alongside or close to others so that will have an effect on how you ride. My wife was under instructions not to say/text about other riders unless it was something serious. Since she was away touring the first three days and incommunicado the only time I spoke to her was from Ullapool.

Some restaurants don't publish their menus online: I've not been able to find one for the pizza place in FA for example.

[sean_iow]

The Tour Divide website rules say

"Pre-arranged is defined as prior to the start of the race clock."

So perhaps I've been misinterpreting it all these years. Perhaps the rules were written before the age of the smart phone and need updating? I personally wouldn't book ahead and not just for ethical reasons. If you get to your planned stop and you're early or you're feeling better than you thought you would are you more likely to stop when you could of ridden on? Also, if you're running later or struggling and you push on anyway to a pre-booked room would you of been better off stopping earlier and resting? Riding on into the night (and dark) to get to a B&B to then be sleeping in the morning when you could be recovered and riding in the light?

[GregMay]

Sean_iow, you're correct. Once the timer starts you can ring. Always has been that way.

Again, I can't see the point.

Scrotes - as a vegetarian, ex-vegan, you learn to make do. I'd never be arsed ringing ahead. You can always get chips or bread.

[Richard G]

I've seen people call / use the internet to book B&Bs etc at the start of an ITT. I've also seen people head straight into a post office to post stuff to pick up later.

I'd say they're both fair game.

[whitestone]

Pre-booking a B&B or hotel room - are you sure you are going to get there in time?

I wouldn't like to see this or any post ITT discussion descend into tit-for-tat accusations: "X did this", "Well you did ...", as said elsewhere, you should have the decency and honour to self-regulate and if necessary self-relegate.

I posted this link http://tobygadd.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/ ... rules.html in the TDR 2017 thread but it's more pertinent here. His set of "rules" is much stricter than the set commonly used, I know Greg has his views about them I think the following (at least) are worth following.

Gadgets are fine
Taking and making phone calls (or e-mail) is fine, as long the purpose is not to arrange for support, locate other racers, or otherwise seek a strategic advantage. In other words, it’s OK to talk to your boss or tell your kid at bedtime that you love him, or even tell your spouse that you saw a moose.
Don't log into BlueDot.mobi, TrackLeaders.com, or other race-tracking sites. Not in towns or with smartphones. Need to find out who’s in front of you? Ride faster! Worried about someone catching you? Ride faster!

[Mariner]

Sea food pizza for a Mr Froome please.
download by michaelandamanda, on Flickr

[Dave Barter]

I personally think any pre-booking is not in the spirit even if it is in the rules. I also think that it's up to riders to self disqualify which should gain one million miles more respect than a dubious completion. I've seen/heard of things in mass starts where the riders really should have owned up but they haven't. No point grassing, simply downgrade them on the respectometer.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I think the only way to ensure absolute clarity is to 'ban' the use of all mobile devices. Carry one by all means for dire emergency but if you use it - you're DQ, eg GDMR. I'm fairly sure most people wouldn't agree but it'd certainly turn grey into black and white.

[jameso]

Wing It. As Whitestone says, just the way to go for many riders. Others need structure and plans. Style is more important than results imo and good style will cover good ethics anyway.

[GregMay]

...I also think that it's up to riders to self disqualify which should gain one million miles more respect than a dubious completion...

Couldn't agree with you more Dave.

[whitestone]

I think the only way to ensure absolute clarity is to 'ban' the use of all mobile devices. Carry one by all means for dire emergency but if you use it - you're DQ, eg GDMR. I'm fairly sure most people wouldn't agree but it'd certainly turn grey into black and white.

In the High Peak Marathon you are allowed to carry GPS devices but they have to be switched off and are sealed in bags, can't remember about phones if it's the same rule. If the seal is broken then you are DQ'd. Similarly in the Island's Yacht Race, the engines on the yachts have a seal fitted, you can't start the engine without breaking the seal and getting DQ'd.

If you enter an event then you should know the rules and ethos by which that event is run, you might not be able to quote them like a lawyer but ignorance of them is no defence. They are after all few in number and fairly simple. If in doubt be more strict!

I can think of one instance where a rider didn't self-relegate and that was Lee Craigie last year on the HT550 where her GPS had failed the day before and she'd committed the route to memory but she missed out the Achmelvich single track as she'd forgotten about it so didn't realise she'd made a mistake. (To be fair the point at which it leaves the road looks like a track to a house) She accepted the DQ without any rancour that I could determine.

[Dave Barter]

On the HT550 in 2015 I gave a rider that shall remain nameless an empty crisp packet to put a half eaten sandwich in. I'm convinced he wouldn't have made it round without it.

Pitchforks!!

[ZeroDarkBivi]

I personally think any pre-booking is not in the spirit even if it is in the rules. I also think that it's up to riders to self disqualify which should gain one million miles more respect than a dubious completion. I've seen/heard of things in mass starts where the riders really should have owned up but they haven't. No point grassing, simply downgrade them on the respectometer.

100%. Take it as it comes - first to arrive gets the reward for pedalling faster. Honesty and self regulation is fundamental if these event results are to be meaningful, so knowing the basic principles, and it's pretty simple, is important.

I don't have a problem with riders logging into the Internet - everybody has that option, but as for external observers communicating with riders on race matters, that is outside assistance. Difficult for riders to stop a concerned observer from trying to call them if they take a wrong turn - my dad tried to do this (unsuccessfully) when I made the same nav error as Lee on the 2014 HT. If the only way to regulate that was banning use of phones, then I would submit to that, but I expect we shall continue to rely on honesty - anything else just isn't practical; drugs tests at the end...?!

Do it yourself.

[Justchris]

I know where I stand but a blog sort of made me question things. Is good planning knowing the phone number of hotels on the way...

No names and event changed to protect the innocent.

Cheers guys.

C

[touch]

I personally think any pre-booking is not in the spirit even if it is in the rules.

100%. Take it as it comes - first to arrive gets the reward for pedalling faster. Honesty and self regulation is fundamental if these event results are to be meaningful, so knowing the basic principles, and it's pretty simple, is important.

I don't have a problem with riders logging into the Internet

I agree with all of this.

A lot of the rules are there to give a level playing field between riders doing the group start and those doing an ITT so I think checking trackleaders as you go is fair.
If you're in the GD and can't check where other riders are, you could be going into the last day with a rider 30mins in front of you that you dont know about, so you just continue riding at your own pace.
If you wait and do an ITT the week after, you now know that rider's finish time so you can try and up your pace a little to pull back those 30mins.

You'll all get listed on the same leaderboard so you're racing against each other whether you started the group start or an ITT. If you were to ban group riders from checking trackleaders during the race, wouldn't it also be fair to ban anybody considering an ITT from dot-watching or looking at the results of the group riders?

[whitestone]

I personally think any pre-booking is not in the spirit even if it is in the rules.

That's my take on it Dave. If I want it then I've to ride faster to get there first.

On events without (official) trackers like last weekend's YD300 you just have to ride to your ability/limit anyway. Some riders did have trackers and Stuart was able to watch them but there was no Trackleaders page for those out riding to log into nor any publicly available link for family to check and then relay the information on to you.

Apart from lights in the distance when going over Cam Head I didn't see any rider from when I left Richard G's group in Gunnerside at about 8:30pm on Saturday night. As it happened the two lights that were following me up the Roman Road from Bainbridge both bivvied by Ribblehead viaduct while I bivvied off-route. One was up and away before me and was about 15-30mins ahead all the way to the end while the other was about an hour behind but I didn't know about either apart from seeing the occasional wet tyre mark around Feizor so I knew someone was ahead but not by how much. (even on the open sections, 15mins is a long way in the Dales and likely to be out of sight)

[Justchris]

Sean_iow, you're correct. Once the timer starts you can ring. Always has been that way.

Sean and Greg-

I read it as TD rules 4. Modus operandi. Blah blah
blah- any services utilized must always be commercially available to all challengers and not pre-arranged.


I don't see where the rules defines that once the clock starts, what is pre-arranged.