Endurance / overtraining / fuel

[simon72]

I surprised myself on the WRT, riding double what I thought I could (5hrs/10hrs/4hrs back to back). In the months leading up to the WRT the longest rides I'd done, although intense, were all under 4 hours and always followed by 2 days of much needed rest. That said the WRT did leave me feeling broken for about 7 days.

I had hoped that the experience in Wales would have increased my endurance but so far it seems I'm broadly back to where I started, give or take 20%. My target is to ride the 100 mile South Downs Way this summer - and not suffer debilitating fatigue the following week.

How do I get from being able to ride 25 miles comfortably to doing 100 in one go? Does it have to be incremental or can I do a few breakout workouts every few weeks that are double my comfort zone?

Also how much and what fuel? I found too much sweet carbs on the WRT made me nauseous. I've tried fat as fuel but this just left me fatigued post ride.

wdyt?

[Bearbonesnorm]

Simply riding more will make a big difference. Intervals / hill reps will also do a lot of good if time's short but they're painful and feel like 'training' which some people don't like.

I've tried fat as fuel but this just left me fatigued post ride.

Your body requires time to adjust to this and it can take quite a while. Just try and eat 'normal' food - pork pie works very well

[ianfitz]

Build up your long ride in manageable amounts each week for three weeks then have an easier week. Repeat.

Wind the pace back and eat real food.

Enjoy it

[whitestone]

It's normal to feel jaded after a big effort - it's your body trying to ensure that you give it time to recover from what you've just done to it. The advantage that professional athletes have isn't that they've got more time to train it's that they've got more time to rest properly and correctly.

As Ian says, lower the effort, if you are red lining it then you are over-doing it and you won't be able to ride very well the following day. I've a pace/effort that I can maintain all day and then do the same the next.

It takes time to build up to long rides as you've got to recover properly before you do another one to stretch yourself. It took me 18 months or so but then I'm no spring chicken, it's easier when you are young.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Yes, pace as Ian and Bob have said is very important. I've ridden with a number of people (non bikepackers) and it's obvious from the look on their faces that they're wondering why you aren't riding faster .......... then, 4 hours later when they're spent and you tell them there's still 40 miles to go, the penny drops. You don't get far by going fast, you get far by going for a long time

[AlexGold]

From riding the route and observing, a few things
- Sleep quality : for me, at least the first night, wasn't great. This won't help the next day
- Food : the first day I didn't eat enough, probably the same the second despite the double breakfast!
Pace: If you're aiming for long distance, you really have to throttle back the intensity. A rough rule of thumb for iron man is 70% of sustainable hour pace as an average, and try not to go above that much, as every hard effort 'burns a match' and you only have so many (which can increase with more fitness or training to do it). I know personally on day 2 I was jumping off as soon as hills got much more than 'challenging' as I knew it would cost me later and there was normally a regroup at the top anyway. For a real long and difficult event it's worth using power or heart rate and setting an alarm to remind you not to go past a certain limit.

[jameso]

Best lesson I learned for riding further is that lots of slow riding is good. It builds up your efficiency and tolerance to long days without wearing you out. 'To go fast - first you have to learn to go slow', apparently. Pootle more, ride further, ideally on less food (w/o getting bonky). Add in one short hard ride a week and you'll get noticeably faster / more efficient in 3-4 months. It's about building low-level endurance as well as using a hard ride to tune up. That short hard ride could be hill reps, turbo work and other roadie-like misery, or it could be hooning about on a fun singlespeed - as long as you put proper effort into that hooning. Seems there's no need for 'training' to suck all fun from riding, you just need to structure the riding you do and balance the time at low effort to high effort, 80-20 or 90-10, maybe even 95-5 if you have a lot of time to ride each week and the hard 5% is an hour at a very high level.

[99percentchimp]

My recent experience (51 years old and weigh over 100kg) would suggest lots of short intense rides can still deliver the fitness to get you round a long ride if your longer ride is well paced.
I did the Dirty Reiver (a slow 200km) recently off the back of mainly turbo sessions over the winter and a few longer rides, but nothing more than 65km. I did it with a mate who's mantra is "start slow and get slower". As has been said above it's a case of not going into the red too much early on. The longest road ride I'd ever managed before was 130km so I was into the unknown on a hilly offroad ride pretty quickly. It was just was a case of finding a sustainable pace so I did all the climbs with a HR of about 150 max. (off a max HR of about 176 - 180). So I guess I was trying to keep around a max effort of about 80%. Seemed to be sustainable and I didn't feel too bad afterwards which was a huge surprise to be honest.
Finding something you like eating helps too - I did a huge mixture of various gels and pork pies (as Stu mentions above) and cheese and salami sarnies - seemed to work for me but finding something you can stomach during the ride seems to be the key and for me mixing up the sweet gels with some good solid savoury stuff works... but I generally have the stomach of a vulture and can munch almost anything without bad effects as long as i stay well hydrated (this seems to be critical too for me in terms of good recovery).

[mh24]

Brilliant posts guys. I too am aiming for BB200 and currently I am only doing approx 3 rides a week (between 20 and 35 km each (1.5 & 2.5hrs each) - on and off road). I am in my head trying to build up longer rides at a slower intensity. Based on what has been said so far, I think I will keep that idea up so that come BB200 time I will have been able to put in some much longer / further rides to "lessen the pain!" m

[PeterC]

Thanks for raising the question Simon and thanks to everyone else for the excellent replies. My year so far hasn't gone to plan and looks as if autumn will be awful as wife has just applied for a new job 300 km away starting September, think the biking is going to take a knock so this info will help a lot as most plans I've seen are very roadie orientated and I really don't like training as such (did enough as a fell runner) bike for pleasure only these days

[jameso]

Good luck with it Peter .. I don't like training 'proper' either yet I do get something out of it, most of the plans I read were roadie-based but taking advice like staying in Z2 for long steady rides, or doing the right ratio of hard:easy sessions can apply to riding for fun if you're not too type-A about it all, so I got a lot out of reading them and trying it. These days it just helps bias my winter riding or general riding patterns when needed / when I CBA.

[whitestone]

99percentchimp - I only really got back into biking when I was fifty so it's definitely realistic. I'd a history of fell running and climbing prior to that so I wasn't exactly couch potato, I just had to transfer the fitness over.

General summary is roughly: ride at a pace where you can hold a conversation, not just short sentences. Keep hydrated and well fed but no need to overdo the water and if you are like most of us you'll have a little in-built reserve food-wise

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'd also add ... if your plans / goal is to complete or compete, then aside from the physical, you also need a way of conditioning your head. As distance increases, chances are that sooner or later your body will decide that it's had enough and must stop. If your brain is thinking along the same lines then it's game over but if your brain is 'happy' to go on, then you'll go on.

Different things work as 'mind motivation' for different people and both positive and negative can produce good results ... I know that might sound strange but hate, anger and fear can be very motivational for some people. You just need to find something that works for you. Ultimately, there's a type of joy to be discovered in misery and suffering, you just need to find the key because once you do, you can 'feed' off it.*

* sorry if all that sounds a little odd.

[macinblack]

Does anyone use music to help the psychological aspect?

I've had really long rides where I keep going because I'm miles away from anywhere and so have to keep pedalling.

I wonder if plugging some earphones in and having some rousing music will help.

I've pondered on this before but haven't tried it as yet.

As far as distance is concerned, I've gradually built up the miles, always looking for maximum off-road potential.

We have few hills around here, so I do use out local pit tip which has a proper lung buster and figure of eight around that, that definitely helps with cimbs elsewhere.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I find music a great mood changer. On last year's T-N, I had a 'moment' when my mind started to ask a few questions that it shouldn't have. A five minute conversation with a cow by the side of the road (distraction) followed by an hour of Transplants, Lars Frederiksen and Pistols soon had me right.

[PeterC]

Jameso, thanks for the advice, think I probably tend to push is a bit too hard at times so easy becomes steady becomes fast(ish) sort of thing. It's been a while since I've done formalised running training but I remember back when I got my first HRM how slow long slow distance actually was, slightest hill meant brisk walk rather than jog to keep heart rate in the right zone. Same goes for biking as I should have realised. Anyway, it's long days in the saddle I'm aiming for, bit too late for me to develop speed
Not a fan of music outdoors, prefer the silence or sounds of nature, however, I do have this amazing friend who first introduced himself way back when I was bottling it on my first HVS, he's always been there when the going gets tough, usually just hovering behind my right shoulder

[mh24]

Me again! For training for a long ride like BB200 and training for endurance - is it best to try and a) up the miles or b) up the time in the saddle. I am guessing the latter, but just wanted any advice / affirmation!? M

[Bearbonesnorm]

is it best to try and a) up the miles or b) up the time in the saddle. I am guessing the latter, but just wanted any advice / affirmation!? M

Aim for both.

If you up your speed in an effort to up the mileage count, you will become fitter but it's more important to know you can churn out an average of say 10km/h for hours, even days on end with little sleep and poor food in variable conditions.

[mh24]

is it best to try and a) up the miles or b) up the time in the saddle. I am guessing the latter, but just wanted any advice / affirmation!? M

Aim for both.

If you up your speed in an effort to up the mileage count, you will become fitter but it's more important to know you can churn out an average of say 10km/h for hours, even days on end with little sleep and poor food in variable conditions.

Thanks Stu - and I will make sure to keep the mental fitness up too - as you say - a lot of it is all in the head! Ps that aim of 10 kmh average - is that on or off road - or a combined mixture? At the moment I would say my riding is 40/60 off/on road.

[Bearbonesnorm]

10km/h is a reasonable goal off road. When looking at a long bikepacking route, there'll be a real mixture of terrain - fast roads to tussock death-march, so an average speed of 10km/h is still a reasonable goal once terrain becomes mixed and the days long. Also, remember that's total average, not moving average - any stops will be counted in it too and they soon chip away.

[Blair512]

I always struggle on day 2+, I can ride 80 or so miles no problem but then I am never able to replicate that on the second day and end up taking a bail out option. I don't seem to recover well overnight and need a few days after anything over 60 miles. Probably need to try to do 40 each day and gradually build it up, I struggle to fit a proper training plan into family life so just extend my commutes through the week when I can and try to get a bigger ride in at the weekend.

[simon72]

Thanks for all the quality responses. I can see my issue now. Every time I get on a bike I get all type-A about it and go as hard and fast as I can for as long as possible. I actually had to stop using Strava a few months back as I was so obsessed with chasing KOM's that I started to worry about heart problems: arms tingling, numb lips, gasping for air uncontrollably. Since then I've been enjoying riding more but still tend to redline most rides: I thought that was the objective.

I will try doing some solo rides in Z2 and figure out how far I can ride on back to back days without burning out - and use that as a new benchmark to build upon. I'll save the redlining in threshold for my Sunday group rides where the temptation to be competitive is too great.

Btw, I never got a KOM!

[whitestone]

Ah! The male competitive instinct

My strategy is to let the fast riders head off and once they are out of sight I'll just settle into my own pace. The BB200 is good for this as you have a two hour window in which to choose your start time so there might be no-one ahead of you or a fast rider or a slow rider, you are left to just get on with it. You'll be riding with, catching up, being passed by other riders, you'll probably see the same riders several times due to stops for mechanicals, cafes, etc.

The objective is to keep going and get to the end.

Keep distance and speed rides separate, the distance rides need to be just that, if you feel the need for a full on training session then set a ride aside for just that and leave a day of rest either side so that it's effective. Long time on the bike will also show up any potential problems with bike fit, technique and the like. Fixing these will take a while since they'll only appear on a long ride and you need to recover from that before you can test the "fix".

[Bearbonesnorm]

Ah! The male competitive instinct

Yep, group of blokes with some kind of mechanical device in the same place and it quickly becomes evident what's wrong with the world.

[jameso]

^ That is quite true .. : )

I will try doing some solo rides in Z2 and figure out how far I can ride on back to back days without burning out - and use that as a new benchmark to build upon. I'll save the redlining in threshold for my Sunday group rides where the temptation to be competitive is too great.

I remember back when I got my first HRM how slow long slow distance actually was, slightest hill meant brisk walk rather than jog to keep heart rate in the right zone. Same goes for biking as I should have realised. Anyway, it's long days in the saddle I'm aiming for, bit too late for me to develop speed

To these points, agreed, it's hard to stay at Z2 level especially on a hill. One of the things that seemed to help my endurance was learning to ride hills but stay at Z2. Maybe it was simply that doing this meant longer road rides (say 6hrs plus) became much easier due to pacing so in turn 6hrs seemed like a normal or easy ride - if you're enjoying it 6hrs goes by pretty fast. Mentally that helps, for me. It does seem to help with higher-pace riding overall as long as you also do some higher-pace work with the long easy riding. Make the match box bigger as well as fill it with more matches.
I think there's 'time-crunched' training plans that just use the higher effort work and get similar results, so maybe there's a limit to the amount of high-effort work you can gain from but no real limit to adding on the slower, lower-effort time, as long as you're recovering well overall.