Well hopefully they'll do some research and read threads like this one, and realise that although it might raise them some free cash to get production going, it does nothing but harm their reputation in the long run, I'm sure they (and other companies using kickstarter for similar reasons) have lost loyal followers due to lack of honesty during the development of the product in question.

Well hopefully they'll do some research and read threads like this one

In which case, it'd help if the thread title was spelled properly

The cash gap thing is difficult to bridge sometimes. Sam can't afford to stump up >£30,000 for a batch of frames without knowing he's guaranteed to sell a certain amount. I wouldn't blame Sam for wanting to launch a new product, and having to use something like Kickstarter to fund it. There is a cost to him for doing so - 10% I think, but even if the product is a good one and gets backing, failure to deliver within either the original times stated or a reasonable period thereafter undermines confidence in his brand, and also for people backing other projects through Kickstarter. Perhaps Kickstarter aren't aware of the implications on them if a project is delayed or badly communicated and are happy to take their 10% and then washing their hands of it.

I've only ever backed one thing on Kickstarter (Fix It Sticks), and it was very well communicated and delivered more or less on time. I certainly felt I'd got some value from the process, which is how it should be, and Fix It Sticks is now a happy trading company (as far as I can tell). I think I'd be cagey of backing something quite as expensive as a bike frame on the basis that I couldn't afford to write the money off if it all went tits up.

I'm not seriously thinking of selling as I'd need a mug to buy it after all the delays. Exploiting such a person for my own purposes would be wrong

Depends how you look at it.
I bought Riddoch from STW's pledge off him a few weeks ago at cost.
If you assume that each new delivery date is slightly more believable than the last, then who's the mug? Those who paid their money nearly a year ago, or those who jumped the queue by buying an existing pledge with only two months to wait?

I still can't help thinking that if I'd spent three times as much though, I could be riding a Travers 29+ right now.

Ian wrote:

Well hopefully they'll do some research and read threads like this one

In which case, it'd help if the thread title was spelled properly

The cash gap thing is difficult to bridge sometimes. Sam can't afford to stump up >£30,000 for a batch of frames without knowing he's guaranteed to sell a certain amount. I wouldn't blame Sam for wanting to launch a new product, and having to use something like Kickstarter to fund it. There is a cost to him for doing so - 10% I think, but even if the product is a good one and gets backing, failure to deliver within either the original times stated or a reasonable period thereafter undermines confidence in his brand, and also for people backing other projects through Kickstarter. Perhaps Kickstarter aren't aware of the implications on them if a project is delayed or badly communicated and are happy to take their 10% and then washing their hands of it.

I've only ever backed one thing on Kickstarter (Fix It Sticks), and it was very well communicated and delivered more or less on time. I certainly felt I'd got some value from the process, which is how it should be, and Fix It Sticks is now a happy trading company (as far as I can tell). I think I'd be cagey of backing something quite as expensive as a bike frame on the basis that I couldn't afford to write the money off if it all went tits up.

I'm missing the miss spelling? (spelled / spelt ;-))

Anyhoo, its no great surprise its running late, I'm just a bit ... Hmmm.... Bored? of the time it's taking. Comm's are average, i think, at best. Not a deal breaker but a little frustrating.

Think £30k might also be a touch over the odds. Its just gas pipes welded in Taiwan to a design. Sure there's a time and effort involved but financing this is not that much.

Hey ho. Bit skip-bobbly-flop this afternoon . Sure it'll all be ok.

As for the "mug" thing. More about selling something on I thought might be a dog.

So many ways to skin a cat.

Not every Kickstarter / crowd funded project is the same and as such they each need to be assessed on their own merits. In this particular case, the Kickstarter project is SIngular's, but they are not in full control of the production - a point I tried make earlier. Though investors are backing SIngular, the outcome (quality, delivery time etc) is dependent, to a significant degree, on a 3rd party. So, this is a risk point to consider when backing such a project.

SRS wrote:Not every Kickstarter / crowd funded project is the same and as such they each need to be assessed on their own merits. In this particular case, the Kickstarter project is SIngular's, but they are not in full control of the production - a point I tried make earlier. Though investors are backing SIngular, the outcome (quality, delivery time etc) is dependent, to a significant degree, on a 3rd party. So, this is a risk point to consider when backing such a project.

Sorry, I'm missing your point, or the need to re-present it?

As I perceived it the offer on KS from Sam was more akin to a pre-order than a real "kickstarter". That's fine, for a small business it's just another potential means to improve cashflow (money up front). Just bored. Bored, bored bored.

TBH it's more about me suddenly finding something else I'd rather have £600 tied up in. I don't even mind the ultimate sum, I guess it's jusst the (ever?) extending deadlines that are a little irksome.

I mean that as well, it's only irksome, nobody's dead, no children were harmed, no bunnies were experimented on

I don't know whether he's got an agent out there (taiwan, where I assume production is). I read ages ago about how agent's were worth their weight in gold and, if Sam hasn't got one, I think that (conveniently) proves the point.

Pfft

[quote="Cheeky Monkey"
Sorry, I'm missing your point, or the need to re-present it?
.[/quote]

The point is ovbious. I only made it because a) some posters seems to be extrapolating the experience of one Kickstarter to all crowd funded projects...and b) I was bored.

SRS wrote:[quote="Cheeky Monkey"
Sorry, I'm missing your point, or the need to re-present it?
.

The point is ovbious. I only made it because a) some posters seems to be extrapolating the experience of one Kickstarter to all crowd funded projects...and b) I was bored.[/quote]

Not obvious enough for *me*

the outcome (quality, delivery time etc) is dependent, to a significant degree, on a 3rd party

I know the factory. They do stuff well and although busy they're not in the habit of making anything but what you specify or letting people down, ime. I don't mean that to read as anything but a positive / reassurance. I don't think there's any risk on the supplier side of it.
Been following this here and there as I know how long it can take to sample then produce a bike. Took me almost 6 months to go from a rough layout to a delivered frame / rideable bike this year, same factory.

jameso wrote: Been following this here and there as I know how long it can take to sample then produce a bike. Took me almost 6 months to go from a rough layout to a delivered frame / rideable bike this year, same factory.

Aye, but did you promise it would be quicker?

I hoped it would be.

Cheeky Monkey wrote: I'm missing the miss spelling? (spelled / spelt ;-))

Kickstarter / Kickstater

Zippy wrote:

Cheeky Monkey wrote: I'm missing the miss spelling? (spelled / spelt ;-))

Kickstarter / Kickstater

I assume the kickstarter supporters get a healthy reduction on the frame price, which means a reduced margin for the company and therefore a cost to the credit. It may be less than bank rate with less hoops to jump through, but still not free. And that discount on the frame price is on the understanding that you will have to wait a specified, but likely longer, time for delivery.

Seems a fair deal really for anyone who is prepared to put up the cash. It's not for me though, as like others I would probably change my mind before the product arrived. The only thing I would say, especially after the Puffin situation, is that Sam just needs to keep the communication coming. Even if he has to post every week that it's still delayed and he's not sure when they will arrive it's when things go silent that folk get wound up.

The Kickstarter price was £400 and the retail price will be £595.
Like any deal, you've got to weigh up the pros and cons.

As a customer would you pay several months in advance to get a frame at 2/3 retail price?
There's a risk that there may be delays and your money is tied up longer than planned.

As a manufacturer, would you sell a limited number of frames at 2/3 retail price in order to get some cash flow in advance of having the frames built?
There's a risk that there may be delays and your reputation may suffer.

I'm lucky, I bought someone else's pledge well after the closing date, so it's a relatively short wait for me.
Would I pledge on a new Kickstarter deal for the sake of saving £195 on a frame? Only if it was a manufacturer with a proven record of delivering on time and keeping pledgers up to date with what's happening.

"major issues have come up in production which are taking some time to resolve" sounds a bit ominous. Some more detail on that would be nice.

VeganGraham wrote:I'm lucky, I bought someone else's pledge well after the closing date

Ah ha! Just the sort of mug I was looking for (no offence )

"major issues have come up in production which are taking some time to resolve" sounds a bit ominous.

I imagine it's either "I was told they were about to be shipped but now I've talked to someone they haven't enough bought the tubes" or "they've welded them back-to-front".

Sam's made a goodwill gesture with a limited time discount of 35% on existing frames. Nice gesture but not sure I can afford another few hundred quid on another frame (hasn't he seen my garage )

I just checked when I paid Kickstarter. 11 April 2014. Who anybody care to offer odds on whether I'll have the frame within a year ?

I'm not considering it but it's an interesting point about when / whether a timescale is exceeded and what happens. An open-ended time frame wouldn't be sporting, surely, but when does a long time become too long?

I remember looking at the Backcountry Boiler on Kickstarter. It seemed to take years for them to be delivered.

I remember looking at the Backcountry Boiler on Kickstarter. It seemed to take years for them to be delivered.

I recall that caused much upset and bad feeling.

Anybody for a Packraft?

Anybody for a Packraft?

I'll back you

s8tannorm wrote:

I remember looking at the Backcountry Boiler on Kickstarter. It seemed to take years for them to be delivered.

I recall that caused much upset and bad feeling.

The levels of chuntering were phenomenal. It could have been their own "STW event". There were issues about supply, manufacturing, others "nicking" the design and all sorts.

Justone big, long hissy fit. It's what the internet was made for

Major issues in production?
really?


When he said they were still in production in October, it was clear to me that they wouldn't be here this year. If they weren't finished welding them up mid October, they still have to be inspected, finished, painted, graphics, packed, dispatched to the shipyard, sit in the shipyard a few days, travel by boat, clear uk customs etc,sent to singular, sorted, addressed, sent to customers.....

There was no way in the world. I suspect Sam knew this.
The biggest problem is not admitting it up front and telling the people who's money has been taken.

s8tannorm wrote:
I remember looking at the Backcountry Boiler on Kickstarter. It seemed to take years for them to be delivered.

I recall that caused much upset and bad feeling.

I wonder if this frame will be the same.

I wanted a Backcountry Boiler from the start and nearly bought one prior to the kickstarter, didn't, instead I waited a year and now I have a mk3 backcoubtry boiler that's substainally better than the original with all the issues of the original ironed out, lighter too.

Love Sam's products and he's a great guy but this is the second time the kickstarter thing has gone wrong.

Only reason I didn't get a rooster was when he didn't do the 30.9 seat tube and I don't need another bike!!!

So, I've mentioned on this thread before that I backed a new saddle design on indiegogo, in october 2013, well, it arrived in the post yesterday. Their communication was appalling, and everyone thought they were going to do a runner with the 50k they raised. But actually, it's a really nice product, and it's clear that there were delays because they had to tweak the design after some extensive testing.

I haven't ridden it yet, will be out on it this weekend, so we'll see. Pics soon.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/morg ... le-saddles

mountainbaker wrote:So, I've mentioned on this thread before that I backed a new saddle design on indiegogo, in october 2013, well, it arrived in the post yesterday. Their communication was appalling, and everyone thought they were going to do a runner with the 50k they raised. But actually, it's a really nice product, and it's clear that there were delays because they had to tweak the design after some extensive testing.

I haven't ridden it yet, will be out on it this weekend, so we'll see. Pics soon.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/morg ... le-saddles

Interesting - looks like a quite tuneable saddle. My mate did something along these lines as a final year industrial design project.