Training thread

[jameso]

There's been a few useful training tips and links on other forums and I got a bit of info to help me with last year's training plan. Since the weather's grim the turbo's out again but more for keeping on top of fitness than training. I wanted to see who's also using a turbo for endurance riding, what works, myths busted or not, links, etc.
What other training works for you? I don't like training as such, but theres a few riding 'games' I play that seem to help, the super-low cadence, high-gear climbing where you try to keep to a max HR of Z2-3 border, or the silly spin-ups on the SS. Just getting the best return from riding for fun I guess.

Last year I did one threshold session a week, twice occasionally if I didn't get any SS miles in. That and a lot of long rides loaded up worked for me but there's a lot of info saying that with a good base you can just do the HI work and see the right results. I guess this is more for XC and road racers and not those wanting to knock out a good steady pace for 8, 12, 18 hours on a heavy bike. I think you need some good trad base miles to adapt to saddle time, gain the mental strength etc. Joe Friel talks about base training as 'preparing to train harder'. Any opinions on all that?

I've found more info on threshold training so I may try varying that a bit to see what's more effective but not having a power meter I'm not sure if I'll be able to quantify it. I just go off resistance, cadence and HR, plus knowing that the power (resistance X cadence, work X time) fades if HR stays the same when you fatigue.

Also, I think turbo stuff really only works the cardio side of fitness, you still need big-gear/loaded miles/SS rides work to build strength? Or am I miles off there?

[Bearbonesnorm]

Interesting thread and hopefully one that'll evolve nicely.

I'm way off any sort of expert but have on occasion experimented on myself just to see what happens when you do certain things ... the no/low carb diet was a particular experiment I'm in no rush to repeat

At the moment I'm playing about with the effects of minimal HI exercise and when I say minimal I mean, 20 second 'all you've got' sprints on the turbo repeated 3 times with 40 seconds rest between each one. I'm not convinced that it'll have any effect on fitness but a minute, 4 times a week isn't a lot to invest.

In general I really struggle with the idea of training and lack motivation, if there's a specific goal I'm better but quite often still think 'it'll be fine, I'll just wing it' which isn't really a good attitude.

[adjustablewench]

I once went to a lecture by a sports science chap - it was aimed at roadies but it translates across the board. He said that the only two forms of training that were really any benefit were the HII sessions or proper endurance - several hours worth at a reasonable pace

So unless you are up for a loooong session the hii are the way forward for the turbo - unless you're ianfitz who recommends a good couple of hours on the turbo outside in the rain . . . . May do it one day, its not like my neighbours dont think im bonkers enough as it is

[ianfitz]

Haha. That is my recommendation. But also includes facing the wall, no music or distractions.

Will make you mentally strong.


It's worth noting that I don't own a turbo though....


:)

[jameso]

20 second 'all you've got' sprints on the turbo repeated 3 times with 40 seconds rest between each one. I'm not convinced that it'll have any effect

Tabata sessions? Meant to be very effective but I've not tried them.

I think a couple of posts on a STW training thread made me realise a lot of it is about time available - if you have just 3-4 hrs a week, they need to be HI, grim levels of work. If you have 15-20, you can't do all that at HI and you need a couple of hours (max?) HI, a couple of moderate sweet spot rides and the rest as base or recovery.

Ianfitz, you're recommending the classic Stamstad Plan right? ) It sounds daft but I did have a couple of weird times last year, just zoning out after while at max and focusing on a point on a wall and it all goes calm, you feel like you could settle at that level for hours. In reality, a few mins later I felt ill..

[Ian]

I don't do turbo trainers. I believe riding/ training should have a degree specificity about it, which is another reason I don't own a road bike. Anyway, that wasn't what I was going to write about.

Joe Friel talks about base training as 'preparing to train harder'. Any opinions on all that?

Went out for a ride with Aidan last week. Admittedly, Aidan is aiming to peak sometime in the next two weeks for Iditabike, and my training goal is still 3 months away, but the ride was a real slap in the face for me and what I needed to work on. I'm good with the endurance stuff, despite not having done much volume this year. My capacity to manage the steep climbs was way below Aidan's, which is perhaps as expected given timing of races, but doesn't mean I should be able to attain that level myself. Fact is, I haven't done much of the really steep stuff to build that muscle/strength to get up stuff. The rides I've been doing have been hilly, but I've just measured progress on the basis of those rides getting easier as I get faster. What I need to do us work on increasing the difficulty and severity of short/ medium sessions to build more strength. I need more steeper climbs. The result should be that I can manage easier gradients for less overall effort and recover more quickly from the steep stuff when it does arise.

[slarge]

In my experience you need a goal, something to train for. Then the training needs to be relevant to the goal. Then it needs to be enjoyable, or at least endurable. Then a positive mental attitude. A new bike, or at least new shiny bits helps as well.

That's as far as I've got. Just riding lots per week seems to help, although I am sure a proper plan would make me quicker I don't want to stop enjoying the biking.

[johnnystorm]

I went turbo-crazy over Xmas with a combination of new-born baby and crap weather preventing proper riding. Now that I'm commuting to work 10 miles each way most days I'm finding less time for the turbo. There's no science about any of this, I copied a few turbo sessions from Cycling Weekly, etc and reason that something is always better than nothing!

[jameso]

I need more steeper climbs. The result should be that I can manage easier gradients for less overall effort and recover more quickly from the steep stuff when it does arise.

Same logic as increasing LT to get your endurance pace up, something I'd not really understood until a year ago. Also a more fun way to do it than a turbo trainer.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Went out for a ride with Aidan last week. Admittedly, Aidan is aiming to peak sometime in the next two weeks for Iditabike, and my training goal is still 3 months away, but the ride was a real slap in the face for me

Now you know how everyone else feels

[jameso]

I believe riding/ training should have a degree specificity about it

Is that just what works for you, motivation etc, or any basis for it? I ask as you race / train more than most here. I seem to notice a benefit from mixing my riding. I got a lot fitter on the MTB after getting a road bike, I got stronger on road after riding SS a few years. Mixing it up every couple of months, varied focus, also works. Maybe it just works when you're going from average rider to fitter rider, the more trained you get the more specific or targeted it needs to be?

[composite]

OK well I have been documenting my training for quite a while now but most structured from last November. Here are the three posts I have made on my blog:

http://www.composite-projects.co.uk/201 ... 014-part1/
http://www.composite-projects.co.uk/201 ... 014-part2/
http://www.composite-projects.co.uk/201 ... 014-part3/

I did loads of reading and speaking to people and feel that I had a lot of info that I was able to put into practice. I think sticking to whatever you decide to have a go at, doing it regularly and with progressively over loading are the most important parts as opposed to the exact detail.

I found that doing a serious amount of strength training in the gym at the end of last year has massively helped me now. My climbing has improved so much I actually surprised myself. Where I have noticed it the most is that I can climb in a higher gear with much higher cadence and sustain it for far longer than I used to and be able to keep repeating it over longer and longer rides. In 7ish weeks I put 29mm on my thigh measurement while maintaining the same skin fold so it was pretty much all muscle and no fat increase.

I think although the low weight high reps weights did help with the physical endurance, I think the 17min 85ish% intervals I have been doing have helped a lot with mentally putting up with sustained pain in the legs. I have also been doing short max power type intervals which I think will help when you are on those short steep ramps on a climb when your heart rate goes through the roof but when you look at the timer and you have 10seconds left and your legs are screaming it's manageable mentally. When you look at the timer during a 17min interval and your legs hurt and you still got 12mins left that is something else entirely to deal with in your head. I think this has helped train my head more to put up with it because I know I have before.

It's one reason I like riding in shitty conditions and don't use a turbo. You get to know what you can handle and that actually even when you have spent 5 hours in the dark with numb feet and soaked to the skin, it wasn't that bad really.

I'm not sure how I will be planning the next phase of my training. For sure it will be different to the last to keep it interesting and mix it up a bit. That is something that I think is important for it to not get boring which will only make it harder to do. As the first main goal I had isn't happening any more I'm a little lost at the moment in terms of what to aim for. I'm really hoping a big trip comes off on that same weekend so I have something to keep aiming for.

[Ian]

Jameso: It's something I've read about, but also observed in my own riding. I used to have a road bike, could do long miles on it and so on. I would find myself stretched to hold the pace with others who rode road a lot, but I rode with the same guys off road, I could stretch them because that was the type of riding I did.

It's all a big anecdotal, but I've found if I ride gears (as I have been doing on the Kite), the actual physical training load falls away as I cop out with easier gears on the climbs. When I get back on the SS, (as cited above), I find a distinct lack of strength on the climbs. Therefore, if I want to race SS, that's what I need to ride to achieve the right level of conditioning.

One thing I can't figure out is that I don't do that much riding relatively speaking, and now everyone has the veloviewer stats in their signature it's easy to see my mileage isn't as high as others. But I maintain or increase my fitness by doing what I do, and most of the time it isn't that structured. Anyone with kids will testify to the difficulty in following a structured plan. Therefore, it isn't necessarily about volume or even the intensity at times, but the type of riding that I do is the same as that which I do when I race, which means there must be something in the specificity concept.

[johnnystorm]

But look at your height gain! There's bugger all around here hill wise. In fact I set out to do some hill reps the other day and managed roughly the same height gain per mile I would do on my commute! I dunno if that's because I was using an edge 200 or if strava can't handle a rider going up and down the same slope 6 times?

[composite]

Therefore, it isn't necessarily about volume or even the intensity at times, but the type of riding that I do is the same as that which I do when I race, which means there must be something in the specificity concept.

I think I agree with this whole heatedly. We had a discussion on another thread about trying to minimize the deficit between time elapsed and time moving. Since I have been trying to do this as much as I possible can I have noticed how much quicker I recover from an effort (recover your breathing on the descent, don't stop at the top).
I too have started seeing one of the measures of the success of a ride, being the minimum amount of non moving time as possible. <--- That was a really awkward sentence but I have a cold and CBA with rewording. :p

[Bearbonesnorm]

I think this has a little bearing on Ians points about training on the bike you're going to ride on the same terrain you're going to ride ... something I notice on multi-day rides is that as the number of days increase, rather than suffering from fatigue I actually start to get stronger. I can only imagine that my body is quickly learning to cope and adapt to the stresses being placed on it.

Anyone else? ... although I don't think I've explained myself very well.

[Gari]

I understand what you are saying and agree, I always feel a lot stronger on day 3-4 than day 1 on multi day trips.

[Ian]

My Highland Trail was a classic example of that - felt rubbish for the first day, then ended with nearly 200 miles straight through, bar 1.5 hours sleep. Still trying to figure where in my training I'd prepared myself for that, so that I can do it again for this year...

[composite]

My Highland Trail was a classic example of that - felt rubbish for the first day, then ended with nearly 200 miles straight through, bar 1.5 hours sleep. Still trying to figure where in my training I'd prepared myself for that, so that I can do it again for this year...

TCW double?

I think this has a little bearing on Ians points about training on the bike you're going to ride on the same terrain you're going to ride ... something I notice on multi-day rides is that as the number of days increase, rather than suffering from fatigue I actually start to get stronger. I can only imagine that my body is quickly learning to cope and adapt to the stresses being placed on it.

Anyone else? ... although I don't think I've explained myself very well.

This is one of the things I'm putting to the test on my trip next week, it's one reason why I decided to add the forth day on. Just to see how my body was going to take it. By the way any idea on a ball park mileage for that route back to Pennant yet Stu? :)

[Ben98]

Would Mike Hall's tour divide effort be the same again? After illness etc for the first couple of days then going on to set a record

[jameso]

something I notice on multi-day rides is that as the number of days increase, rather than suffering from fatigue I actually start to get stronger.

The day 5-6 diesel effect. It's something I was relying on happening last summer, it did. It took a few rides of a week+ to really notice it over the years but I think it's invaluable if you know how you react there. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to keep going like that )

Ian, that all makes sense. I'm going to get either a shock when I get back on my SS in the next few weeks, or some confidence that it's effort and input I can get elsewhere (bet - the former). Upper body strength will let me down on the SS though. As for mileages, I don't think miles count for much beyond a certain base level, effort and time is all that matters. 10 miles in my local woods = 3 in much of Wales etc. I used to have a bike computer but now just go on cadence and gears on known hills (or turbo settings) and my HR/PE. The miles go by easier when I don't count them.

[jameso]

Still trying to figure where in my training I'd prepared myself for that,

I know that question.. A lot of shorter but still long days and enough HI work I think. You can't prep for that kind of ride intensity though surely, would be more worn out than trained? I remember telling Paul E I was off for a 16hr training ride this time last year and he asked WTF I was training for, the RAAM? Said you'll just be done in and not able to train enough. Truth in that probably, despite me not saying what I was training for and thinking 'RAAM, haha.. Nah.. erm.....'

[numplumz]

I'm a firm believer in what's been mentioned above about ride specific training. I consider myself a strong endurance mountainbike rider, but several years ago I spent one year doing a larger proportion of road miles in sportives and the like than off road stuff.
I definitely noticed that I'd lost my mountainbike legs even though I considered myself as fit as ever. Having seen power traces from off road rides they are just a mess of spikes and troughs, something you just cant simulate unless your doing it I think.

Having a tough load you can't shirk from is key too, whether this be a very hilly location, singlespeed, or just trying to keep up with a stronger bunch or riders; so lets all go out out on rides with Ian

I've read with interest Composite's blog on his training. His accounts of doing so much off bike strength work to the detriment of riding at times because his legs were shot seemed to go against everything I'd ever read or practiced. I got the impression he was being led by non cycling information. Hearing about your desire to do lots of endurance races/events I worried about your lack of apparent base training which trains your whole physiology to deal with long rides. It appears though that your reaping some rewards from your methods, and look forward to hearing about your future exploits.

Don't forget though guys, you only really improve while your resting

[composite]

I've read with interest Composite's blog on his training. His accounts of doing so much off bike strength work to the detriment of riding at times because his legs were shot seemed to go against everything I'd ever read or practiced. I got the impression he was being led by non cycling information. Hearing about your desire to do lots of endurance races/events I worried about your lack of apparent base training which trains your whole physiology to deal with long rides. It appears though that your reaping some rewards from your methods, and look forward to hearing about your future exploits.

I think this is a really interesting point and one in general i think I would agree with. A few thoughts though on maybe why it has worked for me. I might go on a ramble here.

1. I think I went into that training phase with a pretty good base already. I was commuting 5 days a week with an evening ride and was able to ride fairly comfortably for 6-7+ hours on the weekend; I had done the BB200 in one sitting only a few weeks before hand. It wasn't like I was going from a 2-3 hour ride once a week.

2. The strength phase I did was only 6-7 weeks. I'm not sure this is long enough to lose loads of the base that I had. I get the impression it's a really good base which is why Ian can be so on it with "so little" miles as he puts it. My guess is that he has a very good level of fitness generally which he keeps "topped up" with the miles he does do, but has lost strength which is the first to go when not training that aspect. Although as Ian pretty much only does the single speed monster mash (right Ian?) I wonder how all those hills climbed don't train the strength aspect, especially riding the Puffin!!! Hmm maybe I'm talking total bollox there.
Interestingly the consultant I have seen a few times at Birmingham high performance sport centre for my body comp told me to keep trying to do one session of weights per week still, to try to keep the strength aspect going. I suspect though this was as much about maintaining muscle mass while eating at a deficit, as it was about maintaining strength if you get my point. She seems to know what she is on about though and is into track cycling herself. I have had some great results with decreasing body fat while not losing much muscle mass doing what she has told me to do so I have faith in what she says.

3. This phase was quite early in the "off season" so to speak so I think there was still plenty of time to get my cycling legs back. I jumped straight back into doing some fairly long rides and although I found them harder than they were before it wasn't the legs protesting it was my breathing mostly. I did wonder actually if the strength work had just brought my legs up so they weren't the limitng factor any more as opposed to my CV system getting worse, maybe a mixture of the 2? I think it was getting back to commuting after the Christmas break and maybe 4 long rides and I was feeling pretty good again on the bike. In fact starting to notice improvements quite soon after this.

4. Although I used to ride a fair amount I was never riding at great intensity or really racing. I do wonder that if for someone like yourself Jack who is a far more experienced racer and so beyond a certain level already whether what I did would effect someone like you differently? I wonder if maybe after a year of racing during 2014 if doing the same/similar plan again next winter would give me anywhere near as much improvement. Maybe it wouldn't, although is one season enough? I'm sure I read somewhere people mentioning 3 seasons is what you need before you start getting anywhere near what you might actually be capable of.

5. Ultimately this whole thing was/is a total experiment for me and I reckon for the most part I could have done almost anything in a structured, committed way and would have seen improvements, which kind of goes back to the point above.

[gairym]

Wow, do I feel inadequate after reading all of the above!

I've upped my 'training' for this coming year but clearly have a long way to go before I can even understand what the hell you're all talking about (HI and HII for example) - it's a different language.

I went for four areas of change (the terminology of my 'training regime' may baffle some of you less scientific types but try and stay with me):

1. eat fewer pies.
2. ride my bike more (and longer).
3. do physio and exercises for core strength to keep bad back at bay.
3. attempt to figure out what exactly interval training is and do some of it (lack of speed has always been my thing - I can ride slow for days but have no speed in me at all).

I feel that if I can achieve all of the above I'll be in with a fighting chance of winning the BB200 this year