ootball and tennis have rules written down and governing bodies.

Indeed but who wrote them down and decided what they'd be? All that running about looks like hard work, I think it'd be better if running about was limited to 5 minutes because that'd suit me better

Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:47 am

ootball and tennis have rules written down and governing bodies.

Indeed but who wrote them down and decided what they'd be? All that running about looks like hard work, I think it'd be better if running about was limited to 5 minutes because that'd suit me better

Walking football for you then. Yes, it is a thing and very big in Brixham where most men are over 60

Dave Barter wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:23 am Football and tennis have rules written down and governing bodies. Bikepacking just has pitchforks

We've got BaM Rules/rules and a gover... well, Phil anyway . (Has he got a body or is he just a virtual chimera on the forum I wonder? ). BB2/300 even has a few. WRT... hmm.. dunno.. hope not.

Reckon the "no pre-booked accom" is a big part of this surely.

After that, the tramp v competitor sub-group styles of bikepacking dictate whether there's a route that is pre-set and allows no diversion. Personally as a fully paid-up tramp with no fixed route I think not being able to say "I wonder what that is over there, I'll go and find out" or just randomly change my direction for the hell of it means I wouldn't be "bikepacking". It's Stu's "freedom and adventure" - and not being home for tea. Obv all you competitive types would disagree .

The other thing that intrigues me is 'self supported' often means 'carrying all food and drink for the journey' as being central to 'bikepacking'. Seen it mentioned on Here a few times. That might be fine for a one-day competition, but can't be true when longer than a few days - water for example. Yes I know people take '7 days worth of dried meals' but they still need H2O added from somewhere, and if that's a stream or tap then plainly you didn't have everything with you when you left home so aren't 'fully self-supported'. I'll let you off if you're towing a trailer with ten gallons of water on it. But then you wouldn't be 'travelling light'......

Nothing living is self supported it all needs to take in energy or oxygen or water or food or it dies.

Walking football for you then. Yes, it is a thing and very big in Brixham where most men are over 60

Aye, Dee coaches walking netball with her now over 60.

I think it really just boils down to whether you believe that there is / or isn't a difference between bikepacking and other forms of cycling such as 'touring'. By that, I don't simply mean saddle pack v panniers but a fundamental difference in the ethos, goals and mindset.

I'm now going to award myself a panda and STFU about it.

Laz wrote: nothing living is self supported

Good point, albeit reductive .

Hence why I don't think food and drink (and breathing/weeing/pooing?) are part of the 'bikepacking' definition.

Stu wrote: I'll STFU

Nah, keep going, we're getting down to the esoteric nitpicking silly stuff now . Mrs P is waving my chores list at me and this is a good excuse to studiously ignore her/them .

100% with what's been said on freedom, adventure and (relative) self-sufficiency.

I guess being free to follow a route of your choosing in any moment would rule out the 'bikepacking races' where the whole point is to follow a predetermined race route. I've always thought bikepacking ≠ racing anyway but I know a lot of people are interested in bikepacking races so each to their own.

The advent of easy hotel booking via smartphones and booking.com has increased the leeway of the hotel-dwelling rider (whether a bikepacking racer or a credit-card tourer) to wing it, but still get a room for the night, thus confounding matters further!

It's all angels on a pin-head stuff isn't it?

JackT wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:26 am I've always thought bikepacking ≠ racing anyway but I know a lot of people are interested in bikepacking races so each to their own

Agreed, man after my own heart but we'll get shouted at in a minute

Jack wrote: hotel booking

Nah, paid for ≠ bikepacking . Then again, food/drink bought en-route (*) will presumably be paid for..... Here we go again .

(*) hah, you don't catch me out that easily - I can't be en-route cos I don't have one .

Interestingly now that 'self supported' has been mentioned, they refer to their journey in the article as "... a self-supported, multi-day adventure."

In these days of marketing, influencers, social media, diversity, bike manufacturing, adventure holidays, self-identification... maybe we're all just extras in a Monty Python production

If I am following a single day pre-designated route but carrying my sleeping kit is it bikepacking?

If I'm following a multi-day pre-designated route but intend riding through the night(s) so have no sleeping kit, am I bikepacking?

If I'm making it up as I go along but stay in a hotel every couple of days, is it no longer bikepacking?

If I ride the Tour Divide and stay one night out of twenty in a hotel, is it no longer bikepacking?

Is riding an event or (god forbid) a race with others automatically not bikepacking?

Just trying to tally up past and future riding with the currently designated boundaries so I don't stray too close to being fashionable, doing what I would have done anyway.

Dyffers wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:13 am Just trying to tally up past and future riding with the currently designated boundaries so I don't stray too close to being fashionable, doing what I would have done anyway.

I think that's probably the point though, there really aren't any "currently designated boundaries". Or rather there are; loads in fact but at the end of the day we create our own, if any.

psling wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:07 am Interestingly now that 'self supported' has been mentioned, they refer to their journey in the article as "... a self-supported, multi-day adventure."

In these days of marketing, influencers, social media, diversity, bike manufacturing, adventure holidays, self-identification... maybe we're all just extras in a Monty Python production

In this context (and the context of races like the Transcontinental, and long distance record attempts) self-supported / unsupported means no sag wagon / team car following behind.

It's not uncommon for groups doing long distance rides like LEJOG to have a van and a driver as part of the group.

I was surprised at how many support vans and bag drops there were on PBP. Coming from the UK I had the impression that self-sufficiency was part of ethos of audax / randonneuring.

If I had to venture into the minefield of definitions, I'd say bikepacking one subcategory of "recreational travel by bike". Adventure / expedition cycling is another (think Ian Hibell crossing the Sahara Desert). Cycle-camping is another. Credit-card touring is another. Full-service van-assisted cycling holiday is another. Randonneuring/audax is one more ("touring under pressure" as Steve Abraham once described it to me).

Aren't we lucky there's something for everyone? Personally, I think people should resist categories, and the identities and constraints that flow from them, and do whatever they want. It's all just a holiday on a bike, right?

No camping is just not bike packing.its litterally a portmanteau of bike and camping.

1. Yes , just
2.no just a long bike ride
3.correct its not
4.still bikepacking you are allowed a shower at domenpoint and every 10 days seems reasonable to still be a tramp
5. Still bikepacking ( even the re!lly fast folk who dont sleep)

Many years ago I got a ferry to Cork with my bike a saddle pack. A plastic emergency bivy and a credit card. I had no pre booked accommodation. I found it on the way. I rode to the north with no flight home booked and no fixed route plan.

So was this bikepacking, touring, credit card touring or stupidity. I feel it ticks the adventure box very well as those with a tent had more options than I did

It is just cycle touring with different types of luggage. Nothing more.
I think we all really know this.

Cleese: (In bowler hat, black jacket and pinstriped trousers) I look down on him (Indicates Barker) because I am a bikepacker.

Barker: (Pork-pie hat and raincoat) I look up to him (Cleese) because he is a bikepacker; but I look down on him (Corbett) because he has panniers and sleeps in a tent. I stay in B&Bs.

Corbett: (Cloth cap and muffler) I know my place. I look up to them both. But I don’t look up to him (Barker) as much as I look up to him (Cleese), because he has got innate ruggedness.

Cleese: I have got innate ruggedness, but I have not got any money. So sometimes I look up (bends knees, does so) to him (Barker).

Barker: I still look up to him (Cleese) because although I have money, I am slow. But I am not as slow as him (Corbett) so I still look down on him (Corbett).

Corbett: I know my place. I look up to them both; but while I am slow, I am honest, industrious and trustworthy. Had I the inclination, I could look down on them. But I don’t.

Barker: We all know our place, but what do we get out of it?

Cleese: I get a feeling of superiority over them.

Barker: I get a feeling of inferiority from him, (Cleese), but a feeling of superiority over him (Corbett).

Corbett: I get a pain in the back of my neck.

That's good!

Very good Jack

Well articulated Jack (like one of them Canadian ice truckers).

Riding a bike? Check
Enjoying themselves? Check
Not causing trouble for other cyclists? Check

I think that covers it.

The notion that panniers are Taboo is strange coming from the opening post. To me its gone full circle with Tailfin Ortlieb and OMM latest offerings. Never got the high up weight on most bikepacking setups. How many spend day after day on singletrack weaving in-between the trees? Its perfect for the ultra events travelling light and fast( more aerodynamic than small panniers ) but not so good if away for more than a week or two unless your in the desert with no rain .

Sajama wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:14 pm The notion that panniers are Taboo is strange coming from the opening post. To me its gone full circle with Tailfin Ortlieb and OMM latest offerings. Never got the high up weight on most bikepacking setups. How many spend day after day on singletrack weaving in-between the trees? Its perfect for the ultra events travelling light and fast( more aerodynamic than small panniers ) but not so good if away for more than a week or two unless your in the desert with no rain .

Sort of...

Our summer touring (not "racing") setup as shown in the shot in the thread I linked to earlier weighs around 3-4kg with the heavy stuff, like tools/food, in a frame bag so it's lower down and around the same height as it would be in a pannier setup. Handlebar bag would be sleeping stuff and be around 1 - 1.5kg, seat pack which is spare clothes and maybe something like stove inside a mug is roughly the same maybe a bit less. The *only* time I notice the "weight" being high up is when picking the bike up from the ground and moving it to an upright position and then only slightly, whilst actually riding it really isn't noticeable or a problem.

Panniers became less used as bike manufacturers stopped adding the necessary lugs to attach the rack for cost purposes (I'm ignoring the custom bike builders here) and they weren't an option on many/most MTBs anyway. When people thought about adding racks to MTBs there weren't any lugs so things were hacked together using P-clips and the like. To cut a long story short, these weren't up to the job, the jolts of off-roading putting too much stress on components and so "soft" luggage became the norm. The newer rack systems like the Tailfin (really high up BTW) and Aero Spider work around those limitations.

For me it isn't about the "system" (I have both) but about what I *need* to take to be comfortable, it's rare (in the UK) to need more than I can fit in a soft luggage setup. In a previous sport I was a alpinist/mountaineer so am quite used to the minimalist approach. YMMV of course.

https://oldmanmountain.com/

Thanks for that @sajama. Nice to see OMM haven't been sat on their laurels and have axle kits for thru-axle. Racks are looking very nice indeed and what struck the eye (after the rack) was how they describe themselves... 'we've been making bikepacking racks for over 25 years'.

What Bob said. More folk on bikes having fun.

there was a similar CyclingUK mag feature done a couple of years ago, about a father and son 'bikepacking' in Scotland,

"We opted for B&Bs over camping so we could travel light – and enjoy a bit of comfort."

https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle-magazin ... orm-trails

CyclingUK seem to have a lot of content on the topic and discussion: https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/cycle ... difference

if it gets more folks out on their bikes then it's all good