Monks trod - wtf

[Al]

https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/2420 ... d-cost-1m/

A sad day for tussock lovers

[Bearbonesnorm]

I have to say, that's quite mad

[ton]

as someone who dislikes cars and motorbikes, this is a terrible thing.
But the last time i went over the monks trod, it was in a terrible state, and cycling it or trying to was pretty crap.
so if any work done on it makes it more usable, well it could be seen as a good thing...... kind of.

[Al]

I've ridden it a couple of times. Let's be honest unless theyre planning on tarmacing it, once it's had a load of 4wd go over it it's not going to be any better on a bike.
Seems like a crazy waste of money to trash a wild space.

[ton]

Typical UK mentality now though....... appeasing the masses

[jameso]

It's a byway so 4x4 and motorbike access - the article mentions a ban (damage-related?) so is this is a repair project that simply re-instates the original access rights?
Don't get me wrong I'm not much of a fan of the 4x4s and motorbikes in places like this, but if there's access rights ..

Edit, I see elsewhere the byway status was closed a while back and it wasn't clear what access would be when re-opened.

Interested as I can see the benefit of having a useable route there, it'd certainly make a difference to the routes I take around that area. Being selfish I'd rather not share it with 4x4s and motorbikes, but wouldn't object unless there was an environmental protection problem.

[Lazarus]

Seems a weird thing to do, and the article /councillor was unclear about whether its for 4x4 or a bike route.
I also fear we (cyclists) are in danger of beimgn ike walker forums about cycling routes with 4x4 its like there is a pecking order of coutryside users /groups to despise

Every group should have somewhere they can use but i would be very umlikely to ride a 4x4 route or indeed own one

[Bearbonesnorm]

The article appears to suggest that once re-open to motorised traffic, it will also form part of a long distance cycle route ... in my experience, the two things don't usually gel well. I'm sure everyone who rode last years BB200 will be well aware of how unsuitable a track used by 4x4 and off road motorbikes can be for cycling on

[Hyppy]

I'm sure everyone who rode last years BB200 will be well aware of how unsuitable a track used by 4x4 and off road motorbikes can be for cycling on

Oh that's just bloody great, Stu: My therapy sessions were about to end and now I'm back to square one. You weren't there, man … you weren't there!

[JackT]

The BOAT (byways open to all traffic) designation that essentially opens non-tarmac routes to 4x4s and trail bikes seems to me to be an anachronism from a time when (1) there weren't very many recreational 4x4s and trail bikes and (2) off road vehicles were were far less powerful and thus less prone to cause damage.

BOATs were presumably intended for a relatively small number utility users rather than for a large number of recreational users, on very powerful machines, which is what you get now. And hence so much damage to the trails, usually destroying them to a point that they're often impassable by anyone on a pedal bike, and probably people on foot too.

I know some people say that the ramblers have the same view of people on bikes, but I don't think you can really compare the kind of trail damage that motorised vehicles cause with that caused by pedal bikes, or even e-bikes for that matter.

I think recreational motorbike and 4x4 users should be kept to tarmac routes or private land. The negative spillovers of their fun on the rest of society are just too great.

Having said all that, I've always loved the pluck shown by the people in this photograph taken on the Gap in 1975.

geograph-2150640-by-Peter-Randall-Cook.jpg (141.06 KiB) Viewed 828 times

[javatime]

Maybe a timely reminder for membership of CMS

[https://www.cambrian-mountains.co.uk/cm ... urely-not/]

Letter from CMS is linked in the text

[Lazarus]

The BOAT (byways open to all traffic)

There is a walkers website somewhere explaimg why bridleways dont apply to bikes as bikes did not exist whem the routes were created etc.

I support everyone having access to the countryside. Access law re not just rubbish for cyclist's

I don't think you can really compare the kind of trail damage that motorised vehicles(BIKES) cause with that caused by pedal bikes( BOOTS)

I am really not at all comfortable with using argumemts used against us and apying them to others nor do I like the pyramid of hate / contempt. I wonder who 4x4 hate? Tracked vehicles?

[sean_iow]

I used to be the Chairman of the IOW4x4 Club (many years ago) and we had a code of conduct for green lane use that 'should' prevent damage. When they closed the longest lane on the Island the idiots still drove it and damaged it, there's not the resources to police it.

Also from my 4x4 days, we were a member of the access association supporting responsible use. We had sight of a leaked document from the Ramblers Association which basically said they think the countryside is for walkers only. They are starting with the 4x4s as they're easiest to get support for banning, next will be cyclists then horse riders.

If anyone thinks this is scaremongering, if you traveled back to the 1970s and 1980s and told the 4x4 users that the lanes would be closed and they would be banned from them they'd think that's as ridiculous as me saying now that in 20 years we won't be able to cycle off road, but it's happening.

As for the argument about modern powerful 4x4s... come and see how much damage eBikes are doing to the bridleways over here this winter.

I have no knowledge of this particular green lane and the reasons for the closure, maybe this is one that should remain closed. But once we start taking away peoples rights because it doesn't align with how we think the countryside should be used it's a slippery slope. As a minority user group we need to think who's going to speak up for us when the red sock brigade decide our use isn't what should be going on.

[sean_iow]

I wonder who 4x4 hate? Tracked vehicles?

There was a guy in our 4x4 club who had a thing for tracked vehicles, it did make him the object of much banter. He used to bring his to trials, you could say what you wanted as a fast walking pace would outrun it

[Bearbonesnorm]

We're doing it again. What? Taking a specific and somewhat unusual example and using it as a gateway to a much bigger and broader 'whole'.

[whitestone]

Given the "state" of the RoW as often mentioned on here, it does seem somewhat odd to spend so much money on improving it to any useful/usable state. Actually to do it to a usable state is likely to cost a lot more than a million.

Reminds me a bit of Derbyshire Council's repairing of Rushup Edge and some "repairs" in the Lakes - slap some hardcore down and walk away then the first hard rains wash away most of the work.

[Alpinum]

Typical UK mentality now though....... appeasing the masses

You'll find this mentality all over the world...

[fatbikephil]

Seems to be a large amount of irony over this as it was the UK govt that introduced the CROW act which restricted a lot of byways to non-motorised use and prevented historical claims to creating more byways (and other ROW's which unfortunately back-fired)

I actually wonder if the journo has got it wrong as the article seems to suggest its currently shut to vehicles so mebbes they will sort it and then just keep the TTRO going, or make it permanent?

Strata Florida - what not to do....

[johnnystorm]

Typical UK mentality now though....... appeasing the masses

I dunno if the 4x4 crowd are 'the masses' vs walkers and mountain bikers but in any case this example is in Wales and the Welsh Gov have been rather down on new roads and curtailing drivers so promoting driving through the countryside seems very at odds with the prevailing mindset.

[Lazarus]

you could say what you wanted as a fast walking pace would outrun it

Genuinely laughed at this and agree with what you said. Ebikers with their choices are making everything unrideable even when it dries out its ruttted terribly.

[JackT]

It's not just the damage to trails, it's the noise, the fumes. I don't much like leaf-blowers either.

I do see the danger of the slippery slope and the pyramid of contempt. But I am happy to draw a line that says, under your own human power, away you go, if you've got a motor, that's what the roads are for. I'll make a concession for horses, on grounds of being retro.

Sure, it's subjective. And it may not be consistent. And it's a not a static, unchanging state of affairs. I was reading an old issue of the Cairngorm Club Journal the other day that contained an account of some club members who drove up to the Ryvoan Pass and parked their car by the bothy while they went off hill walking. You couldn't do that now, and, if you ask me, rightly so.

Likewise, if it can be shown that 'rightful' use of a bridleway by people on bikes is causing a problem to walkers or other users, simply by virtue of there being so many people on bikes, then I can see that usage may need to be constrained or curtailed, or alternative infrastructure put in place.

I suppose permitting is another way of doing things, I believe there are some 4X4 byways that have a certain number of permit days a year. I don't think it happens here, but I remember when I lived in California that there were certain popular areas, like Yosemite and the Lost Coast where you had to apply and pay for a 'wilderness permit' if you wanted to do a multi-day walk and camp along the way. Maybe that's the direction we're heading for the honeypot destinations?

[GregMay]

WOW...I really can't think of a bog less suitable to a motorised vehicle than Monks Trod. Let them have at it, after a few hundred go through they may just about be able to get across it on their carcases.

One of very few trails I swore I would never ride again.

[JackT]

back to the Monk's Trod, I came across this assessment by the Powys council in 2011:


"The whole route is in an upland deep peat environment, and forms a fragile peat surface with parts forming a blanket bog. As a result, the surface has deteriorated through use by vehicular traffic as it is very difficult and will take a long time for the peat and blanket bog to recover. It has been evident by visual inspections, and the mapping done by the Margaret Thomas report of 2005 that vehicular use on areas other than on the definitive line of the byway has occurred. This is mostly down to vehicles wishing to use an undamaged route, or a drier line to pass. This use still occurs despite the permanent and temporary closures being in force, but it has reduced significantly and it has been noted by CCW that the damage off the definitive line has gradually recovered, but much of the definitive line is still deeply rutted."


So the definitive line becomes hopelessly rutted, drivers look for a more passable alternative and you end up with a much wider, frayed area of environmental impact.

I suppose the council's thinking is that by turning the definitive line into a modern metalled track they'll contain use to the definitive line and the surrounding area will be spared. The objection from the Cambrian Mountains Society is that such a resurfacing would destroy what should be designated as a 'Linear Ancient Monument' and that given its historic origins a route for feet and hooves, the Monks Trod should never have been a BOAT at all, but a bridleway.

Since motorbikes and 4x4s can already use the Claerwen reservoir track, if the objective is to create a trans-Cambrian route for recreational 4x4s and trailbikes, wouldn't it make more sense to create a ROW to bridge that bit from end of that byway to the Ffair-Rhos road than to resurface the entire Monks Trod? Am not a local and my knowledge of the area isn't comprehensive, so this could easily be a daft idea.

[RIP]

Since motorbikes and 4x4s can already use the Claerwen reservoir track, if the objective is to create a trans-Cambrian route for recreational 4x4s and trailbikes, wouldn't it make more sense to create a ROW to bridge that bit from end of that byway to the Ffair-Rhos road than to resurface the entire Monks Trod?

That was my initial thought too - that already exists, why does there need to be another motorised 'Trans' a couple of miles away?

Much as I enjoy a bit of noise in the right place (S Pistols gig maybe ), this quiet Welsh wilderness is not 'the right place'.

[Verena]

Ah you've beaten me to it, have just logged on to post link to the article...late to the party I see! Will have a read later on over a tea break...
And also see what else has been occurring, especially on the BAM thread, as I'd better get my furry socks into gear for this month...