Exposure Joystuck

[thenorthwind]

Two and a half years ago I bought a (new) Exposure Joystick mk14. Everyone sings Exposure's praises, both the customer service and the product, so I felt pretty confident I was making a good purchase.

The Joystick's a very versatile light, and I've been very happy with it, though I haven't used it a very regularly. More often it's been in my bag just in case.

In December I took it for a damp overnighter, and a couple of days after I got back, noticed it was on in the garage, and it wouldn't turn off. There was clearly some moisture under the lens and the rear housing, and nothing I could do would shift it, so I contacted Exposure, and sent it back to them. I suspect the cause of the moisture ingress is the little flap on the charge port that doesn't stay in properly.

Today they've told me it will be uneconomical to repair. I see now that the specified warranty period is 2 years, something I'm sure I could have checked when I bought it, but didn't (my bad), relying on their good reputation. They've offered me a new one at about half the retail price, which it's clearly a good deal, but it's also what I paid for my old one 2½ years ago (yes, it was a good deal, and the price of everything has gone up in the meantime).

I'm feeling pretty hard done by: I feel a light from a premium brand should last more than 2½ years before it fails, probably due to poor design, and I'm reluctant to shell out for another light from the same manufacturer. Or have I got unlucky, and I should just suck it up?

Any suggestions for similar lights?

[boxelder]

I've had a similar issue with a Shimano Di2 junction box. Water ingress due to me not replacing a blanking plug in a spare port. I'd say, annoying as it is, the half price deal is a pretty good one. I guess the warranty has to take into account those who will buy one and use it twice a day all year, as well as irregular users. Reminds me of a mountain guide I knew who would return his Goretex jackets just inside the warranty period, knowing they would fail their tests. He got 3 or 4 for the price of one.
Doesn't help you at all obviously.

[Dave Barter]

I’d go back to them with your last paragraph and see what they say

[Lazarus]

Would probably feel same as you though if asked to pay a wad for a light you.dont trust and water ingress is IMHO a manufacturing fail that should NEVER occur irrespective of age.. Daves haggle beg makes sense to me.

Do think you just got unlucky but think they should do more

[voodoo_simon]

Might be worth questioning the IP rating? Really not my forte in that side of things

Although I am a user of exposure, it does put me off a brand that has ‘excellent customer service’ and is well
known for it too. If the product is good, then how do people know this?

[fatbikephil]

My latest joystick did a similar thing but still under warranty - it only needed the rear circuit board swapping as it happened but the issue was sealing around the rear plate. The plug socket is sealed, even if the bung isn't in, apparently.

I'm surprised they are saying it's not repairable unless the battery has shorted out. But even then there should be enough left to replace the guts.

A mate recently sent her Mk1 Maxx D back to them as the switch had packed in - they charged her £40 to put the latest back panel in and pronounced the battery at 95% capacity

[thenorthwind]

I’d go back to them with your last paragraph and see what they say

Probably the best idea. I'm not sure what I'd be hoping they'd do - perhaps cover some of the cost of repairing. But I'm genuinely not sure I want to buy another product from them at this point, so I guess it's fair to give them a chance to respond.

I'm surprised they are saying it's not repairable unless the battery has shorted out. But even then there should be enough left to replace the guts.

Apparently both the circuit board and battery need replacing - I guess if it was only one, it might be different. But the cost to them can't be more than a new light.

Although I am a user of exposure, it does put me off a brand that has ‘excellent customer service’ and is well
known for it too. If the product is good, then how do people know this?

...is a very good question! I guess with something like this, there's always going to be damage that you wouldn't expect to be covered by warranty, where having a reasonable repair service is reassuring.

To be fair, it feels very well made, and very well sealed - no amount of heat or dessicant would shift the moisture inside, and I couldn't immediately see how I could get into it without destroying it. So I didn't try, because I thought the repair service would see me right.

When I sent it off, I dug out my cheap no-brand direct-from-China light that I bought when I first started riding at night, probably 10-12 years ago. It's not been touched in 5 years or more, but it seems to work fine (don't know how long the battery will last). Makes you wonder...

[godivatrailrider]

Exposure currently have my Six pack which had taken to turning itself off if I went over a speed bump etc..
I’ve asked them to check battery capacity too as it’s a few years old ( at £66 for a battery replacement I’d be ok to pay it)
They’ve found and repaired the issue ( dry joint at a guess) & tested the battery, it’s within spec, £17 included return postage.
I can’t see how water can ingress a sealed unit.
I’d be escalating it. Hopefully some goodwill will prevail

[whitestone]

Might be worth questioning the IP rating? Really not my forte in that side of things

Although I am a user of exposure, it does put me off a brand that has ‘excellent customer service’ and is well
known for it too. If the product is good, then how do people know this?

Generally companies with a reputation for quality can't afford bad product to go on sale - losing a reputation is easy, regaining it is very hard.

Having worked in consumer electronics including developing testing on the production run the answer is somewhat counter-intuitive. If your production and testing is good enough to remove virtually all bad instances then you can afford to offer something like free replacements/repairs since the testing should have removed the bad samples and the cost to you, the producer, is minimal. What you'll see bandied about are terms like "Three sigma" (650 faults per 10,000), "Four sigma" (66 faults per 10,000), "Five sigma" (3 faults per 10,000) and "Six sigma" (4 faults per million). Obviously ensuring a higher sigma rating means more testing and more rejects before sending the final product out for sale. A lot will depend on how many units are being sold and the increased cost to achieve the more stringent quality demands, 5 sigma might be more than good enough if your production run is only a thousand a year since you'd only get one return every three years, for something like medical equipment 6 sigma might be mandated in the contract.

This doesn't help Dave in his situation though.

[trob6]

I've got a joystick Dave I've had for 6 years, used it loads, bought a diablo last year as well for a bit of extra omph in the woods and never had a problem so maybe you got unlucky?

I've got a magic shine bar light as well with a remote battery, amazing thing it is and I think they do integrated lights as well so could have a look at those instead.

[thenorthwind]

I can’t see how water can ingress a sealed unit.

No, obviously it's not perfectly sealed. I'm interested to know how water has got in. They haven't suggested any cause.

I've got a magic shine bar light as well with a remote battery, amazing thing it is and I think they do integrated lights as well so could have a look at those instead.

I'll have a look at them, cheers Tim. I've got a magic shine bar light too - it's really good, but massive (separate) battery, so it rarely gets used.

[godivatrailrider]

I can’t see how water can ingress a sealed unit.

No, obviously it's not perfectly sealed. I'm interested to know how water has got in. They haven't suggested any cause.

So therefore if the product is sold as waterproof and yet there’s ingress, it’s not fit for purpose …

[thenorthwind]

Have to admit I didn't look at the details when I bought it, just assumed it would be sufficiently waterproof. Seems it was rated IPx6:

Water projected in powerful jets (12.5 mm (0.49 in)) against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects.

Magic Shine and Moon alternatives I've looked at are rated to IPx7, but the above should really be sufficient. Even in Wales

[thenorthwind]

Lower your pitchforks!

I've just spoken to a nice chap at Exposure who saw where I was coming from, had a look at my light and agreed it didn't look like it'd had a hard life at all, and it shouldn't have failed, and thus they'd be willing to be lenient with the warranty period. So they should be sending me a working light - he was looking for another mk14, which is fine by me, but wasn't sure whether they had any left.

So, assuming they follow up with that, I'd call that a result. It's mildly disappointing to have to argue the case, but reassuring to know that when it comes to it, you can talk to a human being who can apply common sense - which is part of the reason I bought an Exposure in the first place.

[Lazarus]

Good result all round

[Bearbonesnorm]

Always nice when you can speak directly to someone with the authority to actually make a decision rather than a monkey who simply wants to pass the buck.

[Lazarus]

Its why we go directly to Dee

[redefined_cycles]

Lower your pitchforks!

I've just spoken to a nice chap at Exposure who saw where I was coming from, had a look at my light and agreed it didn't look like it'd had a hard life at all, and it shouldn't have failed, and thus they'd be willing to be lenient with the warranty period. So they should be sending me a working light - he was looking for another mk14, which is fine by me, but wasn't sure whether they had any left.

So, assuming they follow up with that, I'd call that a result. It's mildly disappointing to have to argue the case, but reassuring to know that when it comes to it, you can talk to a human being who can apply common sense - which is part of the reason I bought an Exposure in the first place.

Don't be disappointed at all. The folks that refused to warranty my (poor carbon layup section) frame basically telled me I was lying. That they'd discussed my case and it looked like accident damage.

Then spoke to the (so called) designers who had previously been engaging with me pre-purchase for over 6 months. 5 years warranty frame but in two years the pile of junk broke. They just ignored my email.

Very good reault from Exposure and to be fair it was out of warranty. But, like my bike-teacher/mechanic once said about Hope... "Well, they know it's theirs don't they"...

[Bearbonesnorm]

Its why we go directly to Dee

You're really not wrong John

[thenorthwind]

Its why we go directly to Dee

Very good reault from Exposure and to be fair it was out of warranty.

Agree, and I should accept this and shut up about it before I sound any more entitled... But... Remember when anyone offers you a warranty for a limited period, that's in addition to your statutory right to expect whatever it is to be fit for purpose. Happily, this time it was sorted out with an adult conversation, without anyone having to talk about MA RITES!!1!

[redefined_cycles]

Its why we go directly to Dee

Very good reault from Exposure and to be fair it was out of warranty.

Agree, and I should accept this and shut up about it before I sound any more entitled... But... Remember when anyone offers you a warranty for a limited period, that's in addition to your statutory right to expect whatever it is to be fit for purpose. Happily, this time it was sorted out with an adult conversation, without anyone having to talk about MA RITES!!1!

Agreed. I was just comparing notes Daveandy Definitely glad I just bought a shiny new Strada after your update. Was following the thread with glee and didn't mean you should shut up. Just that they could have argued the case (maybe... I'm not a retail/warranty expert)

[thenorthwind]

Agreed. I was just comparing notes Daveandy Definitely glad I just bought a shiny new Strada after your update. Was following the thread with glee and didn't mean you should shut up. Just that they could have argued the case (maybe... I'm not a retail/warranty expert)

Sorry Shaf, I wasn't suggesting you were - just trying to censor myself before I got too annoying!

[redefined_cycles]

*i meant before your update. Makes me feel reassured though.

[redefined_cycles]

Agreed. I was just comparing notes Daveandy Definitely glad I just bought a shiny new Strada after your update. Was following the thread with glee and didn't mean you should shut up. Just that they could have argued the case (maybe... I'm not a retail/warranty expert)

Sorry Shaf, I wasn't suggesting you were - just trying to censor myself before I got too annoying!

Nah. Not annoying at all..

[redefined_cycles]

Dave(and-y), I'm just sat here plunging into whether I need a circular or track saw. Looking at Festool and Mafell - though they're probably well beyond my price point - and just remembered another one of my stupid purchases (maybe).

The Mafell (which is supposed to be the Rolls Royce of jigsaws) p1cc I bought, is just ever so slightly, teensy weensy bit crap. The switch that is a 0/1 for off/on doesn't agree with my dyslexia too well. It's all black, doesn't have (as similar a) safety feature as the Makita it replaced and to make matters worse doesn't fully engage the on/off position.

By that I mean that when it's off, the switch remains between a 1/0. To me that's totally crap manufacturing/engineering. As to whether its perfectly square in cutting boards, the jury (me) is still out, but I spoke to The Saw Centre about this stupid switch. They then referred me directly to The Germans, and specifically the UK rep for Mafell. He told me that he'd looked at other p1cc jigsaws and that was/is perfectly normal.

I'm not sure (now, I know this might sound like I'm accusing them, but my name, IMO often has that effect) if its my muslim name or something else. But to me it wasn't good enough. Same as how I was fobbed off by the folks at Sonder when they're shitty frame broke on me - with a rigid Trav Prong fork so I definitely wasn't doing any stupid DHing on it - and it brought me back to your case with Exposure.

Hopefully I'll have a similar experience with them if the time ever comes, but (factoring out the 'islamic' effect I might have on some of these manufacturers) with needing extended/end of life warranty. Point is though, as far as I'm seeing they're definitely better than Sonder and Mafell in seeing your exp and how they dealtt with it.

Sonder I could probably forgive, but the Mafell (a £550 jigsaw) I'm totally uncertain. Doesn't make my blood boil (as such as I'm a firm believer that the only one powerful/capable of perfection is God/Allah) but it is slightly annoying. I had better experience with Bosch (blue) who quickly sorted my stuck bit on an impact driver (though the wait was a couple of weeks so as a trades person I'd have been losing money).

Anyway, just inputting as I remembered how Mafell had treated my query!!