BB200 - a few thoughts.

[Bearbonesnorm]

https://www.bearbonesbikepacking.co.uk/ ... what-cost/

[riderdown]

I'm quite happy with where you are on this, I did well last year and it may have lulled me into a false sense of security for this year where I was better prepared, equipped and fitter.

I pulled the plug initially with bedding down and then 20 or so miles later due in part to other factors, optimistic commitments to others and disappointment with myself

I did however "get it" afterwards, a better gpx will always be a welcome improvement but overall it was what it was, it's for me to be better (faster) not for the event to change

I still feel a bit of a fraud for the 2022 black badge and thoughts of handing it back still flutter across my consciousness but "I'll be back" for 2024 far more focused, more orientated to the challenge

As for the inexperienced, just point them at the stories of the horror of this year, point out you need to be able to ride the bike in mountain bike country up and down and be prepared to push, lots of pushing, get soaked, and be self sufficient for 36 hours plus in Welsh weather, being strong isn't enough, experience goes a long way

[Cheeky Monkey]

How can a "challenge" event be "inclusive" for all abilities? Surely the whole point is for it to be hard and by it's nature too hard for some. That's no criticism of those who can't or don't (I'm in both categories) but it doesn't make it un-inclusive.

[redefined_cycles]

Well written (as always) Stu. Short and to the point. I did'nt think I'd make it round this year at all due to circumstances. On hindsight and hearing the stories of people that had scratches and those that got around, I definitely know I'd have been very very poorly (musculoskeletal wise) afterwards. Hence I took the right decision to get a DNS.

Definitely don't feel it's an uninclusive event, but it does need lots of training and some expereince with plent of common sense. Hopefully the future years won't be as gard as this one

[flyingpig]

Very good, Stu

I arrived thinking I knew what to expect after five previous bb200, the last one achieving that elusive black badge.

What transpired was a massive reality check fighting the terrain, weather and the clock clock and scraping a green

Thank you to Dee and yourself for organising this exclusive event and long may it continue in the same vein!

Thank you
Paul

[psling]

Had me worried for a paragraph or two there Stu

[RIP]

Elitist?

I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member.....

[ssnowman]

I think it’s all down to the dress code

[PaulE]

How can a "challenge" event be "inclusive" for all abilities? Surely the whole point is for it to be hard and by it's nature too hard for some. That's no criticism of those who can't or don't (I'm in both categories) but it doesn't make it un-inclusive.

Exactly! It's not uninclusive, or elitist, it's just hard!

[fatbikephil]

I think a BB is very inclusive - anyone can try it. There is plenty of info / write ups / rumour out there to give anyone a flavour of what they will be in for. It then boils down to them to decide if they are up for it. One other point to note is that scratching is quite easy, given it's usually on a fairly wiggly loop so there is no point where you are too far from the start for an easy ride out if it goes pear shaped.

Can I sign up for the BB20 next year please?

[Hyppy]

I think you're spot on with this, Stu. Inclusive to me means welcoming, and I reckon that the event is just that. It doesn't mean easy for everyone; it doesn't mean doable for everyone; it doesn't mean enjoyable for everyone.

I also think part of any inclusivity is you pointing out that it may not be 'for you'. I've not done a WRT but that sounds like the suck-it-and-see, more obviously for everyone, event that would be a logical first step for those asking the questions they're asking. That you even have that as part of the broader BB offering just helps demonstrate that you're not elitist or exclusionary.

This should likely be caveated that I'm a middle-aged, straight, white bloke who has been cycling all their life, but I'd be mortified to think that I didn't consider others' perspectives on this.

[jameso]

Last week, someone told me that, in certain circles Bear Bones is viewed as being ‘less than inclusive’.

Might it be more about the demographic on here which has been discussed before, rather than the events? Sounded from the post as if you weren't sure if it was about the events or not but maybe I misread.

If it's events.. well BB200 is what it is, it's quite niche and shouldn't need to justify the format. In a part of the bike world where 'ultra' this and that or >1000 miles with minimal sleep is all part of the chat surely no-one's likely to say something isn't inclusive simply because it's hard (edit to add, or it certainly sounds hard.. I've not actually ridden any of them).

I expect by now it's recognised why many riders want to see more riders like themselves at events, that goes for the industry as a whole. Perhaps when some events and brands are showing what happens when they actively go out to under-represented rider groups rather than simply 'being open' it's fair to say the average point shifts, what was the norm then becomes seen as less inclusive relatively? (this is one of those things where it's not for me to say where BB sits).
Anyway, I think it's a good topic to ask questions about in actual conversations more than forum posts. It's easier to risk putting your foot in it when having a chat for good reasons, trying to know more.

[jameso]

That you even have that as part of the broader BB offering just helps demonstrate that you're not elitist or exclusionary.

+1

The WRT is as open and run what ya brung a format as it could be and it was there before pretty much anything else. I suppose the crowd it has and the image that presents is linked in a chicken-egg sort of way, like so much of cycling having white European male racing roots and why that's created the dominant demographic in cycling now. There's some good commentary around on why it's down to the industry (the people in it) to change that rather than wait for natural change to come, if it ever would. To not try to change things is the same as saying you're ok with it as it is. I think (or I found) that's easier in some ways for an industry or larger group to take on board as it's less personal than when it's a one person brand, event etc. Same valid point though.

[whitestone]

That you even have that as part of the broader BB offering just helps demonstrate that you're not elitist or exclusionary.

+1

The WRT is as open and run what ya brung a format as it could be and it was there before pretty much anything else. I suppose the crowd it has and the image that presents is linked in a chicken-egg sort of way, like so much of cycling having white European male racing roots and why that's created the dominant demographic in cycling now. There's some good commentary around on why it's down to the industry (the people in it) to change that rather than wait for natural change to come, if it ever would. To not try to change things is the same as saying you're ok with it as it is. I think (or I found) that's easier in some ways for an industry or larger group to take on board as it's less personal than when it's a one person brand, event etc. Same valid point though.

I'd "grade" the BB events along the lines of:

WRT
Winter Event
BB200/300

Having attended a couple of WRTs I'd say that the demographic is about as far from the "thousand yard stare" racing whippet stereotype as you are likely to get.

Positive discrimination is only really practical if you are some way along the road to that "ideal" anyway - I'm thinking of this year's 50/50 male/female split in entries for the HT550 - Alan G could not have considered it unless there was a reasonable expectation that it would have worked. Go back six or seven years and the numbers of women applying for entries on the group start were such that any woman who could demonstrate ITT experience would get a spot.

I'd like to see exactly why the individuals thought that the BB200 (assuming that is what was meant by "Bear Bones") wasn't inclusive.

Maybe a suggestion that anyone thinking of attempting the BB200 for the first time should attend either the WRT or the Winter Event to get a feel for what's involved.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Might it be more about the demographic on here which has been discussed before, rather than the events? Sounded from the post as if you weren't sure if it was about the events or not but maybe I misread.

That's right James, I'm not sure as no one has ever said anything to me directly. With regard to 'here' ... 'here' is anonymous. I don't know whether people are male, female, other. I don't know their religion, skin colour or beliefs, unless of course, they choose to make it known.

Maybe a suggestion that anyone thinking of attempting the BB200 for the first time should attend either the WRT or the Winter Event to get a feel for what's involved.

Very much on the cards Bob as is suggesting they perhaps download themselves a previous years route and attempt that over 2-3 days and see how they get on.

[jameso]

Positive discrimination is only really practical if you are some way along the road to that "ideal" anyway - I'm thinking of this year's 50/50 male/female split in entries for the HT550 - Alan G could not have considered it unless there was a reasonable expectation that it would have worked. Go back six or seven years and the numbers of women applying for entries on the group start were such that any woman who could demonstrate ITT experience would get a spot.

That's it, it has to start somewhere or by someone and there has been some real change there in recent years. I would take a guess that the increase in women entering events like this is not seen evenly across events, the events that are making the space or taking the right steps to open the event up are seeing the change. Same with other less represented groups, R6pha's events for example, they've done more than most to open up riding in recent years.

[jameso]

With regard to 'here' ... 'here' is anonymous.

That's true - perhaps it's perception, or an average impression of topics and content, photos etc. idk.

[jameso]

suggesting they perhaps download themselves a previous years route and attempt that over 2-3 days and see how they get on.

While I understand why events have entry conditions, there are folks who just turn up at 'on your head be it' open events and get it done with no previous form or record at all. There were a number of women on Lael Wilcox's Women's TNR who'd never ridden an Alpine col of any sort before that ride yet they all saw it through together and some really great things came from their experiences and the 'you can do it too' attitude they passed on to others afterwards. I don't think many of them would have done something like that solo or as a very small group, or as a race/timed event.

Not a BB200 specific comment here .. Sometimes I wonder if the focus on self-reliance as part of the challenge is where long-distance events miss out on inclusivity - there's good things in riders supporting each other to get through something they didn't think they could do at all. Perhaps it's ok to just be really clear on what the terrain and challenge is and let people be adults, or learn from experience. There's room for and good things in for self-reliance and 'learning the ropes' but imho nothing to be gained by being too purist about it either. Unless it's an event rule.

[Bearbonesnorm]

While I understand why events have entry conditions, there are folks who just turn up at 'on your head be it' open events and get it done with no previous form or record at all. There were a number of women on Lael Wilcox's Women's TNR who'd never ridden an Alpine col of any sort before that ride yet they all saw it through together and some really great things came from their experiences and the 'you can do it too' attitude they passed on to others afterwards. I don't think many of them would have done something like that solo or as a very small group, or as a race/timed event.

Not a BB200 specific comment here .. Sometimes I wonder if the focus on self-reliance as part of the challenge is where long-distance events miss out on inclusivity - there's good things in riders supporting each other to get through something they didn't think they could do at all. Perhaps it's ok to just be really clear on what the terrain and challenge is and let people be adults, or learn from experience. There's room for and good things in for self-reliance and 'learning the ropes' but imho nothing to be gained by being too purist about it either. Unless it's an event rule.

I do get all that you're saying - however (knew that was coming didn't we) there is a point where some people can become a liability to themselves, others and me. I'm wondering whether the mutters about not been inclusive could be from people who also think it's unfair that they can't team up with their friends, hold hands and drag each other along? Dunno but I reckon there's plenty of events where you can do that should you want to.

hallenge is and let people be adults, or learn from experience.

... and should they die in the process? See liability point above.

EDIT TO ADD ... I was just outside putting my tools away and I thought, what is wrong with giving people something to aim for? Is that not better than simply lowering the bar to accommodate any current shortfall because, that feels almost like dealing in instant gratification.

[jameso]

Liability.. I know you have good counsel on that topic and from my own exp 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' there, anyway fwiw I was told as long as the nature of the event and the risks were reasonably explained in writing there was little chance of negligence sticking. More recently insurers asked about medical certificates. But nothing about prior events done or how to evaluate experience - perhaps no need .. but also more caution is not a bad thing where liability comes into things. The responsibility to help prevent others being a call-out might be hard to separate from some seeing it as gatekeeping.
If events are over-subscribed then I get why a filter is needed, I can see why some might feel that they're being judged when that comes up though - fair or not, reasonable or not, no comment and I don't mean this to be any comment on anyone else's way of doing things either. If you CBA (edit, meant Can Be Arsed!) with all that then you're doing something net positive for the whole thing.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I don't just mean liability from a legal standpoint but also from something of a moral one. Allowing someone out who you suspected had little idea of what they were doing doesn't rest easy. It can be easy to say people are adults etc but I fear doing so is sometimes to judge people by your own standards

[Dave Barter]

At a complete tangent. Anyone fancy a 2014 route reunion ride? 7 years have completely dulled the memory and I found myself thinking about riding it again. It will be at least me and Stu (on the shopper)

Edit: It’s 9
Edit 2: How did I ever get a degree in maths?

[jameso]

I don't just mean liability from a legal standpoint but also from something of a moral one.

I don't disagree, equally I'm not sure if there's a moral obligation beyond telling people what to expect. As you do already. I mean, there's enough of a rep surrounding BB200 to put me right off it : )

[whitestone]

At a complete tangent. Anyone fancy a 2014 route reunion ride? 7 years have completely dulled the memory and I found myself thinking about riding it again. It will be at least me and Stu (on the shopper)

Seven?

[slarge]

At a complete tangent. Anyone fancy a 2014 route reunion ride? 7 years have completely dulled the memory and I found myself thinking about riding it again. It will be at least me and Stu (on the shopper)

Edit: It’s 9
Edit 2: How did I ever get a degree in maths?

I was half thinking of the goldilocks route next year, but need to study it as some of this year's route I'm not in a rush to repeat....

Regarding inclusivity comments - not sure where the mutterings are muttered, but normally you need the under represented groups to explain why they don't feel included..and then you have to decide whether those views are worth adapting for.