Thunderstorms

[kvragu]

I have a bit of a fear of thunderstorms, which I discovered on my (road) touring around Europe. I never really got over it, or had to learn coping strategies, because thunderstorms seem to be so infrequent here in east Scotland. It's a bit easier to deal with on audaxes and touring because you can count on grounded structures for protection. I've been getting into mtb stuff lately and have been checking the Cairngorms weather every week. There hasn't been a calm weekend in a while now, so I'm thinking about just heading up there as long as the wind isn't too bad.

However, checking mountain weather (mwis.org.uk), I often see thunderstorm warnings around the Cairngorms. Now, I realise weather is weather and you deal with it to an extent, but I don't have too much of a prior on best practices, when to just stay home, etc. Should I be fine if I keep to lower altitudes if I hear rumbling or see lighhting? I don't want to put too much stock into a low certainty warning, I know weather does what it wants.

What are your best practices for thunderstorms? Just treat it as a normal storm unless you're at high altitude? Is there an obvious 'red flag' in the forecast, apart from literal flag warnings?

[RIP]

Funnily enough I was watching some fierce thunderstorms on youtube this morning. Makes a change from shouting at cats-with-balls-of-wool videos anyway.

The claim was riding bikes is possibly not a good idea - unless they're made of bamboo perhaps!

Another tip was don't lie down on the ground, not quite sure of the physics on that one.

Sheltering under a tarp with two sticking-up-in-the-air poles might not be a good plan either .

Recommendation is get into an area of low trees.

My best-practice way of dealing with thunderstorms: stop riding and go the pub until it blows over .

[RIP]

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather ... ghtning

"If you find yourself in an exposed location it may be advisable to squat close to the ground, with hands on knees and with head tucked between them ["and kiss your ass goodbye" as the saying goes]. Try to touch as little of the ground with your body as possible, do not lie down on the ground
If you feel your hair stand on end, drop to the above position immediately".

Being an old baldy means I don't have the luxury of the hair-standing warning. Maybe beards have a similar effect?

[kvragu]

So if I see 'risk of localised thunderstorms' on mountain weather, should I change plans or stay home eh?

[whitestone]

Generally lightning takes the shortest route to ground (or route of least resistance) so try and avoid creating a shorter path than what already exists.

A lightning storm can pass quite close by without being a problem so unless it’s heading straight towards you then I wouldn’t worry.

The above might seem flippant but being stuck by lightning is very rare. The advice about tucking down is aiming to prevent the current from passing through your heart.

[Verena]

This is really interesting, cheers.

I hadn't realised about the crouching down as opposed to lying down on the ground.

[Lazarus]

what whitestone said. I doubt anyone on here has been hit by lightening and as noted weather does just go from fine to stormy; as it approaches you can tell how close to its path you are and whether you need to get shelter before the lighting passes over head [or change direction to avoid it]
My strategy would be in dont be high up a hill, hide in woods , crouch and provide a route that avoids electricity hitting your heart- at this point i would try and et my bike to stand up and e lower than that and a few feet away from it - providing an easier route to ground.
Risk wise i think lighting strike is a long way down the list of things to worry about on a bike ride
Personally I am more concerned about hailstones the size of golf balls as they bloody hurt and a serious drenching whilst it happens.

[Cheeky Monkey]

I was in the Lakes last weekend. After a lazy session got itchy feet and was going to paddle on the lake. Started raining but wasn't bothered, not made of sugar and being out in the rain is a often a remarkably pleasant experience. Kyboshed those plans as it started to thunder and lightening

So long as you're not up high (top of the hills sort of thing - or the tallest thing in the middle of a bloody great lake) the likelihood of being struck are, AFAIK, massively reduced.

[PaulB2]

To badly paraphrase the late great terry pratchett, don't run around on a granite surface waving a big lump of metal while yelling "All gods are bastards!". His example was a sword but a bike would probably be just as effective.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Always intrigued by the fact that, the lightening we see actually travels from the ground to the sky rather than sky to ground as we imagine.

[Bearlegged]

If riding with someone else, always carry a spare spoke.

"Hold this for a moment m'dear..."

[voodoo_simon]

Quite an informative thread, cheers for the info

Surprised by heading for trees, always thought it was a no no but I assume it’s because they’re taller, more chance of a strike on the trees than yourself.

Not sure about riding in carbon shoes now…

If riding with someone else, always carry a spare spoke.

"Hold this for a moment m'dear..."

I don’t have to outrun the lion, just the people near me..!

[RIP]

Stuff I read said "a collection of low trees". In the circumstances I'm not sure one would have time to count them or measure them.

[Alpinum]

To badly paraphrase the late great terry pratchett, don't run around on a granite surface waving a big lump of metal while yelling "All gods are bastards!". His example was a sword but a bike would probably be just as effective.

Pretty much what I did for many, many years in the Massif du Mont Blanc. Sometimes I tasted ozone, had weird hair styles and a sore hand from holding the electrified axe head. There's something about being in the fog on a ridge with deafening bangs and blinding flashes at precisely the same time.
May find time to post more useful stuff about thunderstorms later.

Just quick; stay away from trees in any case. Branches will break in the strong wind gusts of a grown storm. Much more damage is done by falling trees/branches than by the lightning strikes (in Switzerland - we get loads of storms June - August).

[frogatthefarriers]

I have a bit of a fear of thunderstorms….


What are your best practices for thunderstorms? Just treat it as a normal storm unless you're at high altitude? Is there an obvious 'red flag' in the forecast, apart from literal flag warnings?

Don’t wear an underwired bra…

[kvragu]

I'll dig out an xkcd post tomorrow about lightning and how it's somewhat less straightforward than it seems. But before bed, I'll share more about my embarrassing relationship with thunderstorms.

I never knew I was afraid of thunder until I was close to some, alone, just as I discovered I don't like heights in a bouldering gym. I had been in a storm in the mountains when I was young, but had a guide who seemed to know what he was doing (post hoc, I can say that was a misjudgement). The second time I was caught out was in a valley in the Italian Alps. I listened to the rumbling, knew it was close by, and it was pissing it down, and I realised I know nothing about lighting or how dangerous it might be. I sheltered in an underpass and googled the statistics and mechanics of lightning strikes. I read enough to know that it was statistical anomaly, but if it did happen, I likely can't do much about it but stay in a valley (or get indoors, or in a car).

I decided not to google further because I was getting more and more nervous. Instead, I decided that gas stations must be safe spaces because that is one structure we do not want fire and explosion around. This seemed to almost make sense so I took it as a comforter and tried to stop thinking about it. A few days later, I found myself sprinting out of the saddle across a small Italian village to where I knew a gas station was. It was around midnight, and I was more or less in my pyjamas, as I abandoned my tent in the fields outside the town to get to 'safety'. The storm passed close, but not over my village, and I felt like an idiot, and rhat I should have taken up dnd instead of cyclotouring.

[Rasta]

I've been hit.

Standing next to the hut on Mt Whitney. I was doing part of the John Muir Trail.
There was a sign on the door saying 'do not enter during lightning storms as a group of people had been killed whilst sheltering inside'.
So I stayed outside and got zapped.

[RIP]

I have a bit of a fear of thunderstorms….


What are your best practices for thunderstorms? Just treat it as a normal storm unless you're at high altitude? Is there an obvious 'red flag' in the forecast, apart from literal flag warnings?

Don’t wear an underwired bra…

I obviously don't know you quite as well as I thought Lu

[Alpinum]

So I stayed outside and got zapped.

Wowsers. Were you soaked to the bone when it struck?
Any recollections or were you unconscious?

[redefined_cycles]

Learnt loads from this thread, thanks for ooening kvragu.

[Alpinum]

I have a bit of a fear of thunderstorms, which I discovered on my (road) touring around Europe

I wish I was more like that.
I seem to function the other way round and keep telling myself it'll be alright, even whilst I'm getting hit by hail, smell ozone in the air and hear fizzles across the air after the lightning strikes close enough, that my ears ring for 2 days. Disclaimer: I live in Switzerland. This was last Tuesday; https://www.srf.ch/meteo/meteo-stories/ ... -schiessen, whilst we often get such storms, I always really enjoy them (especially when in a safe spot).
This was 2 years ago where I spend half of the week (work);
https://www.sturmarchiv.ch/index.php?ti ... olhusen_LU.

I try to be prepared. This means I check the forecasts of different sources, which give forecasts based on different models. I constantly keep an eye on the forecasts and how the weather effectively develops, not just a day or two prior a trip. This feeds my experience and judgement for when it counts.

This all comes from a viewpoint from Alpine mountainbiking;

June - August storms are common. Anything but a stable high pressure system and we get 2 - 4 afternoons/evening with storms per week. Outside these months heavy lightning is rather rare, so it's those months I pay special attention to those kind of storms.

Just yesterday I had to choose a different descent with more snow, but faster to get before the conditions change. Ride was from 2891 m.a.s.l. down to 595 m, I just felt a few large rain drops, but it was close. Would've been a ride(walk) in the storm, had I choosen one with the longer way down. It's always good to have options which allow for adjustment to stay safe(r).

If on a multiday trip and you don't want to give in (eg. change route) things are different (I don't recommend all of it)
So the good news for bikepackers is, we tend to be more mobile/faster than alpinists without wheels. I have almost always been able to outpace a storm on a bike. Like yesterday. Eg speed down the easiest way of a mountain. If you don't know/are sceptical about the descent (eg on the other side of the mountain), backtrack the path you came up. Try do be on the move towards a shelter before you're engulfed in fog. Once in fog, you can't tell what's happening around you.
Riding in torrential rain or hail with bad visibility, falling trees and branches, slippery surfaces and falling temperatures are issues to deal with. Hail can quickly become ankle deep on mountain paths. If you're as stupid as I am, you'll also have to be aware of rockfall, mudslides (given the terrain is steep).
Forests become dangerous because of all the breaking branches.
By all means try to be gone before you're engulfed by fog. Once in it you can't assess what the weather is doing and everything comes by surprise. I smelled burned fur close by when waiting for the worst to pull away on a mountainside a few years back - a cow was hit. Once I realised the distance between me and the lightning was big enough (this very individual), I sped down the mountain like an total imbecile. I crashed twice and was very lucky to not get injured. Mainly due to bad visibility, but riding as if it was okay and the sliding around on wet surfaces.
Try to get down/to shelter earlier. If you found shelter don't sit around waiting to find out if you should pull out your space blanked/bivybag. Get in right away. Relax. Wait. Eat. If the lightning is close, like <10 sec between flash and bang, get into the described position. Try to stay dry/sit on a object and keep your feet on a dry object too (which is almost impossible), hold feet together. If you have ear plugs, use them. It can be deafening loud.
Learn to tell the distance by counting seconds between lightning and thunder.
Everybody's different. I go by 10 seconds before I'm going into emergency mode. Which is actually asking for trouble. Lightings can easily travel 3 km or more.
30 sec. would be less stupid. Many say the weather changes fast in the mountains. In every mountainrange I've been the locals will always tell you "here it's different. It changes much faster" blahblahblah. I found the West coasts of any island in the North Atlantic to have even more dynamic weather.
Thunder doesn't come from nowhere (basically needs three main ingredients - learn about them from meteo books) and they need a bit of time to develop. Keep an eye on the development, especially wind direction. Check regularly, like at least every 15 min. Use the major wind direction (read out on clouds, not the direction of the ground) to your benefit.
If you decide to carry on in a scenario with thunderstorm potential remember sheltered spots and set turnaround points. You may get to a point where it's safer to carry on through. But try not to be that person in the first place.

When it has passed, it will be significantly colder, your track/trail/path may be covered in hail. Streams will be running down mountainsides which were dry before and rapidly increasing the size of any stream/river lower down. Even if you managed (magic?) to stay dry during th storm.
No matter how close and scared you were, how good your shelter was, you'll have lost a significant amount of time. Make sure you'll not run into trouble because of that (like riding difficult terrain in the dark with weak lights).

That's for bad storms. Most of the situations are easy going; ride, see what the weather is doing. It start raining, thunder's rolling in. You stop for a break. Drink, eat, the nasty part pulls away after 30 min and you ride on 35 min after you stopped, refuelled.

[Rasta]

[/quote]

Wowsers. Were you soaked to the bone when it struck?
Any recollections or were you unconscious?
[/quote]

I don't think being wet plays much of a part. When Thor or Zeus has you lined up, you're f#%^ed.

It was a nice spring afternoon. A small dark front approached from the west. No lightning or rain. Nothing to worry about! But lacked local knowledge.
My trekking pole started to vibrate. I looked at it, then I was smacked in the head VERY hard. I collapsed. Didn't hear or see anything. No bang or flash. I don't think I lost consciousness. Got up and ran.
There are direct hits and dispersed hits. I assume the hut got the direct hit. Unless I'm super tough and survived a direct hit.
I have had x-ray vision ever since and many other unique powers. Just waiting for a comic to find me.

[fatbikephil]

Lucky escape there Rasta!

[Alpinum]

I don't think being wet plays much of a part. When Thor or Zeus has you lined up, you're f#%^ed.

some believe in physics, some in gods

It was a nice spring afternoon. A small dark front approached from the west. No lightning or rain. Nothing to worry about! But lacked local knowledge.
My trekking pole started to vibrate. I looked at it, then I was smacked in the head VERY hard. I collapsed. Didn't hear or see anything. No bang or flash. I don't think I lost consciousness. Got up and ran.
There are direct hits and dispersed hits. I assume the hut got the direct hit. Unless I'm super tough and survived a direct hit.
I have had x-ray vision ever since and many other unique powers. Just waiting for a comic to find me.

Yeah, sounds like you got smacked from being so close to the hut.

Some good explanation on the different types of hoe humans get struck. To the TO: don't read

https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-struck

[fatbikephil]

https://www.lightningmaps.org/#m=oss;t= ... dl=2;dc=0;
A mate put me onto this! Real time lightening map so you can track storms.