Route creation - workflow, algorithms and the like

[jameso]

Exciting stuff eh : ) About a method of route creation that's working well for me these days and interested in how others do it or what you know about how these mapping sites work.

I've tried gambling on a '2-click' route on Ride With GPS before, ie set as route for bike, click the start point, click the end point and save. Just to see what it was like I used this method to ride from Lake Constance to Turin a few years back and it was pretty good, the algorithm finds bike paths and gets a lower elevation gain route than I tend to map out clicking from point to point the scenic way.

I have the urge (and possibly the time) for a ride that involves getting across much of France to get into the mountains. I need an efficient route between port and mountains but I'm not into TTing main roads.
A RWGPS 2-click route gave me - 953km, 7552m.
Went onto Cycle.Travel and did the same, downloaded the GPX and uploaded into RWGPS, got 931km, 6802m.
My own route that took in a few areas I wanted to ride through, with some review to flatten off or reduce dog-legs, was 961km, 9013m.
If I'm trying to get somewhere and enjoy it but also see it as transit stage that 2,200m between the flattest route and my point-to-point route creation will make a real difference, it's a fair day's climbing.

Cycle.travel wins as a start point, though it's interesting to note it misses a few sections of Voie Vert or riverside bike paths that I've used before (Loire valley EV3/EV6), recommending nearby lanes instead. RWGPS seems to use EV or NCN routes as a default whereas Cycle.Travel takes more direct flatter roads and avoids urban centres where possible, by the look of it.

Having all 3 options on screen in RWGPS lets me see the differences and route a 'best of'. Then the last stage is fine-tuning, by adding control points I can drag the route between 2 fixed points and watch the km / m elevation change to try re-routes, maybe to go into a city to see the sights or go through an area that looks nicer/greener/less urban etc on the satellite view.

Interested in the way others do it? Anyone got deep into this for TCR route planning, or being a map tech expert (Dave B?)

[RIP]

So of course the.....

No, steady Reg, steady, don't get involved

[jameso]

No, go on.. a bit of a soulless way to plan and travel, potentially?

If so, yeah. Planned vs unplanned routes and if planning, planning to see places vs planning for transit. I get that this can seem a bit calculating and dry and wandering would be nicer. 2-click routing is also a way of giving up personal control and taking a chance on a route? Plus, if I have limited time and I want to be in the mountains but I really really don't want to fly to ride ..

[jameso]

Just thought how this is an area where I could get interested in what AI could do. We could have a Reg.AI plug in for routing apps (it generates 5% of the route in the right general direction, takes one random turn then lets you figure the rest out)
Or AI that begins to understand that I often create routes that look great on screen, by day 4 I've had enough of these French cart track 'Pave' options or scenic hilly routes that add 1000m a day, I'm tired and my ass is sore and I'd rather ride on a nice EuroVelo route along the canal today thanks very much. I'm sure AI would learn those lessons faster than I do

[RIP]

a Reg.AI plug in

Now that is the scariest thing I've heard all week .

(actually I do indeed find all this stuff interesting. Just so long as nobody expects me to try and use it )

[psling]

a Reg.AI plug in

Now that is the scariest thing I've heard all week .

Especially scary if AI = Artificial Insemination ....

The double click start / finish method gets you started whatever; either as an actual route or as a line to divert away from and back to along the way.
Me, I'm a wanderer rather than an a-to-b-within-a-time-limit rider though I will often map out a proximation in the general direction of where I want to be although things may alter day to day. Almost a WRT way of thinking rather than a BB200 way of thinking.

Being able to overlay various routes from a to b and adapt them along the way would be a worthwhile facility, and to be able to do this on a single site would be a very useful tool.

[In Reverse]

I do everything in Strava. Look at the heatmaps, look at segments, look at the sort of riding that people riding those segments are doing. It does tend to be pretty time-consuming , especially when there are 3 or 4 iterations like you've described James, but if I'm only having a couple of trips a year and there's a specific goal then I'd rather put the hours in on the prep.

A couple of times I've taken two versions of the route with me - one that diverts through a decent number of towns and one that doesn't - that gives me options between resupply/a pint/a hotel or just staying on the bike smashing the miles out.

I've done 2-click routing a few times in the UK and results have been mixed.

[jameso]

to be able to do this on a single site would be a very useful tool.

The basic paid version of RWGPS does this if you upload the GPX files there to start with. I find it a valuable feature.

[Dave Barter]

The idea I have for route generation is doable but needs an addition to Strava. Basically if you can thumbs up segments or routes the AI can learn what you like. You then tell it start and finish and it can use your preferences to cost segments for a standard shortest path algorithm. I could code this relatively easily but it’s a bit sh-eye- t without individual data as what I like the fat boys don’t and visa versa.

[Dave Barter]

The idea I have for route generation is doable but needs an addition to Strava. Basically if you can thumbs up segments or routes the AI can learn what you like. You then tell it start and finish and it can use your preferences to cost segments for a standard shortest path algorithm. I could code this relatively easily but it’s a bit shot without individual data as what I like the fat boys don’t and visa versa.

Edit: so you can star segments. Wonder if that data is getable via an api?

[whitestone]

The idea I have for route generation is doable but needs an addition to Strava. Basically if you can thumbs up segments or routes the AI can learn what you like. You then tell it start and finish and it can use your preferences to cost segments for a standard shortest path algorithm. I could code this relatively easily but it’s a bit shot without individual data as what I like the fat boys don’t and visa versa.

Edit: so you can star segments. Wonder if that data is getable via an api?

Looks like it is according to the Strava documentation https://developers.strava.com/docs/refe ... edSegments

[Boab]

The idea I have for route generation is doable but needs an addition to Strava. Basically if you can thumbs up segments or routes the AI can learn what you like. You then tell it start and finish and it can use your preferences to cost segments for a standard shortest path algorithm. I could code this relatively easily but it’s a bit shot without individual data as what I like the fat boys don’t and visa versa.

Edit: so you can star segments. Wonder if that data is getable via an api?

Must be able to, as I think that's how things like Wahoo head units do the live segment stuff.

[Ben98]

For my 2 tours across France (Cherbourg - Chamonix) I've just used Google Maps cycling directions then downloaded to a GPX via a website. It's never been perfect (I distinctly remember an attempted run down a motorway at some point) but particularly the most recent trip last summer it was pretty good and I just used my phone to navigate around any small issues.

[jameso]

Loosely related, I looked up prevailing wind and found a link to this live wind pattern animation. Fascinating if you've not seen it before..

https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/w ... 004,51.894

And this topographic map has been useful before for getting an overview of an area. The way the colour coding changes as you zoom is really helpful.

https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/map-cvtgt/Europe/

[Bearbonesnorm]

No use whatsoever but ...



I've often wondered about allocating different actions to dice, eg even number + turn left, 6 = must be tea time. Simply ride until there's a decision to be made and roll the dice in order to make it. Could prove utter sh1te or quite an adventure.

[whitestone]

Roll even number => turn left
Roll even number => turn left
Roll even number => turn left
Roll even number => turn left

Oh, bugger! Put the kettle on

[Al]

No use whatsoever but ...



I've often wondered about allocating different actions to dice, eg even number + turn left, 6 = must be tea time. Simply ride until there's a decision to be made and roll the dice in order to make it. Could prove utter sh1te or quite an adventure.

We did a pub crawl round Norwich like that once. I seem to remember a lot of wandering down streets with no pubs.

[RIP]

Simply ride until there's a decision to be made and roll the dice in order to make it. Could prove utter sh1te or quite an adventure.

No it's an excellent idea. If you remember, I had a day going round in circles in Derbyshire, asking people (well, mainly Bearlegged) to give me on-the-spot random directions at various junctions. Really enjoyed it - pretty much the ultimate in having no idea what would happen next.

Still, back to James's carefully curated route work

[josh]

I tend to use a mix of Komoot and (digital) OS Maps.

Komoot to actually plan the route on, OS to check if the paths actually allow bikes (the underlying data Komoot uses doesn’t appear to differentiate very well between different types of PROWs).

Then to plan food stops and shops Komoot has limited data, so I use Google Maps.

I’ve made use of Google’s My Maps feature to find and waymark lots of places ahead of time for my next trip to avoid/reduce daily research for places to eat/re-supply while en-route.

If Komoot could be relied upon to not route along foothpaths without you knowing about it, it would be basically perfect for my needs. The ability to break long routes into sections for each day is nice too.

[Dave Barter]

No use whatsoever but ...



I've often wondered about allocating different actions to dice, eg even number + turn left, 6 = must be tea time. Simply ride until there's a decision to be made and roll the dice in order to make it. Could prove utter sh1te or quite an adventure.

We did a pub crawl round Norwich like that once. I seem to remember a lot of wandering down streets with no pubs.

Helen and I did it in the car using a coin flip at each junction. TBH it was sh1t we ended up in Chippenham

[woodsmith]

I tend to use a mix of Komoot and (digital) OS Maps.

Komoot to actually plan the route on, OS to check if the paths actually allow bikes (the underlying data Komoot uses doesn’t appear to differentiate very well between different types of PROWs).

Then to plan food stops and shops Komoot has limited data, so I use Google Maps.

I’ve made use of Google’s My Maps feature to find and waymark lots of places ahead of time for my next trip to avoid/reduce daily research for places to eat/re-supply while en-route.

If Komoot could be relied upon to not route along foothpaths without you knowing about it, it would be basically perfect for my needs. The ability to break long routes into sections for each day is nice too.

Komoot is utter poor show. Everything you want is easily available on RWGPS. Google map overlay, easily split a route and save as separate days. I generally plot my routes turn by turn using OS maps on Bing maps for the UK or satellite images for less enlightened parts of the world, but the times I've used RWGPS to generate a route from A to B its never sent me the wrong way up a one way system, down a footpath or onto a motorway. The only decent thing with Komoot is their marketing dept.

[voodoo_simon]

I tend to use a mix of Komoot and (digital) OS Maps.

Komoot to actually plan the route on, OS to check if the paths actually allow bikes (the underlying data Komoot uses doesn’t appear to differentiate very well between different types of PROWs).

Then to plan food stops and shops Komoot has limited data, so I use Google Maps.

I’ve made use of Google’s My Maps feature to find and waymark lots of places ahead of time for my next trip to avoid/reduce daily research for places to eat/re-supply while en-route.

If Komoot could be relied upon to not route along foothpaths without you knowing about it, it would be basically perfect for my needs. The ability to break long routes into sections for each day is nice too.

Komoot is utter poor show. Everything you want is easily available on RWGPS. Google map overlay, easily split a route and save as separate days. I generally plot my routes turn by turn using OS maps on Bing maps for the UK or satellite images for less enlightened parts of the world, but the times I've used RWGPS to generate a route from A to B its never sent me the wrong way up a one way system, down a footpath or onto a motorway. The only decent thing with Komoot is their marketing dept.

Is it free? Struggling to see a price when I click on sign up…

[woodsmith]

Is it free? Struggling to see a price when I click on sign up…

https://ridewithgps.com/plans

[voodoo_simon]

Is it free? Struggling to see a price when I click on sign up…

https://ridewithgps.com/plans

Ta obviously missed that page

[redefined_cycles]

James, probably not gonna help much but I'm always a bit OCD when it comes to route creation. Have the Strava paid account - for mobile mapping - as well as RWGPS (to download others routes); OS maps in ViewRanger; Cycles.Travel (was paid but not sure I kept the sub going); and all 3 versions of Britains Greatest Climbs app by Simon Warren.

Usually when making my own personal routes I now just tend to make in OS maps or Strava/Cycle.Travel, then import into OS to check against major/minor roads. Especially when going far or (trying to go) fast. Main reason is to avoid any nasty/fast A road entries by mistake (had a few near misses over the years by entering then backtracking!).

Beaide that though (and more importantly), when mapping for others I tend to work a bit harder. Since about 2016 I've tried to run a charity ride (to fundraise for wartorn orphans mainly in various terrorised countries) called the Khalid Bin Waleed Challenge. Mainly based around the TCR (ie. a day in the life of the front riders) and Mike Halls rules (ie. no drafting whatsoever... regular checkins... etc).

Being riders that might be new to 200 mile stints (with some decent roots/shoots/bridleway chucked in for good measure as that's what Mike would do ) with about 14000ft of climbing I'm always aware about quality control. Hopefully bring more riders (or at least some riders wanting to enter on each sitting) each second years running as it's a 'through-cycle' which I know the fundraisers I'm targeting might not be keen on. Especially with plenty of (Simon Warren) graded climbs chicked in for good measure - at least a few towards the end when the stress is higher.

What I'd do for each of these (2 routes from Dews to London and one to Bristol) projects is ride the whole route and tweak as needed. Not very time efficient at all but at least it helped me remove any relative unsafe sections for (relative) newbies to end2end unsupported rides. Next project (if I manage to find time to ride the thing) might be a masjid fr Nottingham to Brighton Masjid.

Keen to see this thread develop in case something comes out that saves me all this time/effort. I know one of the TCR riders I watched in YT years ago had ridden (well, viewed via google maps) his whole route, or alot of it, via Google StreetView. Sounded like a very difficult thing to pull of, but I do like to use this method for any potential flaws in my routes.

But then riding em in person usually tends to throw up a whole new translation of the section/sections in question!! The 2 bits of route I most remember are firstly, the Fosse Way. Such a lovely length of road but catch it at the wrong time and it'sa potential death trap. Now made into a long distance route of 240 miles called the (Justice for) Aafia Siddiqui Way. So Fosse Way is here to stay and even having ridden it during the recce rides, I did'nt realise what an unusual section it was.

Secondly, a bit on the 2021 version of the ride/challenge. Dews to Bristol. I hadn't ridden it that far (thankfully) but when entering Bristol. I'd left a few bits in that were running over some ring roads (I think). 4 lanes of which the riders had to turn right. Turned out not too bad - we rode it after about 2100 at night, having been riding 15+ hours already - but could have turned out potentially nasty!! Cycle Travel for such a route throws up the probkem of using paths that end up needing to be ridden much more slowly/cumbersome(ly).

Anyway, thanks very much for such an important thread James. Hoping to learn how/what others do!! Maybe I'll not need to make time to ride next years route afterall..