Raised Reversed Stem

[The Cumbrian]

Seth's reviewed a new Raised Reversed Stem which looks interesting.

I'd like to try one to get my bars higher, but don't fancy forking out $400...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apyTlND9Cuo

[fatbikephil]

A mate was going on about them - apart from the price they look just the job! Bloke on the video was a bit hysterical "It looks really unstable!" I'd say it looks very stable

[Cheeky Monkey]

I watched the whole clip. He's just hamming it up for the first bit. I thought he produced a really good, balanced discussion. Some :whisper: american :whisper: folks and reviews can be unbearable (as I'm sure many UK ones can be too)

[Bearbonesnorm]

What I'm getting here is that it's a solution to a problem caused by the drive towards ever longer / slacker frames. I wonder how it would make a bike that's more 'normal' behave? I'm sure some people will no doubt see it as an 'upgrade' and it will find its way onto bikes with numbers that don't require it?

Thought his explanation of trail was a bit odd as it has nothing to do with bar position and felt like a bit of a red herring really.

[PaulE]

Isn't it just an azonic zero stem, remade for the 2020s? They were high rise, zero length and absolutely terrifying on an old, short jump bike or (as my mate Roddy had) a GT LTS ds with a weird very laid back seat tube..
https://images.app.goo.gl/xRdhsrN8QrFz6fw97

[fatbikephil]

They were great, I actually had a prototype Goldtec stem which had a 45 degree tilt on it but also sat on stop of the steerer so the bars ended up about an inch higher and an inch in front of the top of the steerer tube. My mate still uses it to good effect. On both the Ice cream wagon and Kramp I have the Mondraker equivalent - 20mm reach and about 50mm rise. Interestingly they developed it to accommodate long top tubes and slack head angles, of which they were an early pioneer. Makes for fabulously light and direct steering as well as giving an old git friendly riding position.

[Hamish]

What I'm getting here is that it's a solution to a problem caused by the drive towards ever longer / slacker frames. I wonder how it would make a bike that's more 'normal' behave? I'm sure some people will no doubt see it as an 'upgrade' and it will find its way onto bikes with numbers that don't require it?

Exactly… the industry produces bikes with characteristics that a great many of us then attempt to overcome. Raising bars on bikes with low front ends and shortening cranks to avoid pedal strike on low bottom brackets….

[Alpinum]

What I'm getting here is that it's a solution to a problem caused by the drive towards ever longer / slacker frames. I wonder how it would make a bike that's more 'normal' behave? I'm sure some people will no doubt see it as an 'upgrade' and it will find its way onto bikes with numbers that don't require it?

Exactly… the industry produces bikes with characteristics that a great many of us then attempt to overcome. Raising bars on bikes with low front ends and shortening cranks to avoid pedal strike on low bottom brackets….

What I'm getting here is that it's a solution to a problem caused by the drive towards ever longer / slacker frames. I wonder how it would make a bike that's more 'normal' behave? I'm sure some people will no doubt see it as an 'upgrade' and it will find its way onto bikes with numbers that don't require it?

Exactly… the industry produces bikes with characteristics that a great many of us then attempt to overcome. Raising bars on bikes with low front ends and shortening cranks to avoid pedal strike on low bottom brackets….

Problem? For some this "problem" you mention was/is a huge improvement to what they rode before.

Perhaps it's just old folks with loss of functional fitness/strength, riding tame terrain, wishing they had the sitting position equal to that on a penny farthing.
Perhaps all the "modern" (well, they've been here for 10 years) MTB geometries and bikes simply aren't thought to be made for you.
Industry offers many, many bikes with a superb balance for some MTBing/offroad touring mix.
Some even seem to be trying to give them a name which had already been in use 30 years ago, but then faded because 'not cool'.

Similar stems have been around 10 years ago.
The reverse design may just be a way to get around a patent of a German manufacturer of a zero reach stem.
The evolution of todays MTB with HTA of eg 63° and reaches of eg 40 mm more than what one mighty have ridden 5 years ago went hand in hand with such stems.
This long front triangle/front center, short stem chat reminds me of the "Kindergarten geo" chat.

More than ever I believe in big reach numbers, low HTA numbers, low BB's, short CS, steep STA , stubby stem and wide bars. For proper mountain biking, but also month long offroad touring.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Don't misunderstand me Gian, my point wasn't that a stem such as this couldn't be a good thing but that it will most likely find its way onto bikes where it will likely have a negative rather than positive effect. Obviously for real men, riding real bikes, in real mountains it'll likely be perfect

[rudedog]

Low bbs are great for riding manufactured trails which are usually pretty wide. However, I think they are a serious compromise for the natural (rutted) places I ride in where I frequently need to pedal to keep momentum.

[Alpinum]

Don't misunderstand me Gian, my point wasn't that a stem such as this couldn't be a good thing but that it will most likely find its way onto bikes where it will likely have a negative rather than positive effect. Obviously for real men, riding real bikes, in real mountains it'll likely be perfect

I think I understood you alright, just hold a different opinion on this subject.

Low bbs are great for riding manufactured trails which are usually pretty wide. However, I think they are a serious compromise for the natural (rutted) places I ride in where I frequently need to pedal to keep momentum.

Yeah, there are downsides to this.
I love them (obv. to a certain degree of ground hugging) for everything anyways. I found I'm happy to trade in pedal strikes when not paying attention, kick pedalling along ledges and steep slopes with the risk of falling down a (real) mountain for this carving feeling of low BB's. The carving sensation is worth to dying for .

[Hamish]

Perhaps it's just old folks with loss of functional fitness/strength, riding tame terrain, wishing they had the sitting position equal to that on a penny farthing.
Perhaps all the "modern" (well, they've been here for 10 years) MTB geometries and bikes simply aren't thought to be made for you.
Industry offers many, many bikes with a superb balance for some MTBing/offroad touring mix.
Some even seem to be trying to give them a name which had already been in use 30 years ago, but then faded because 'not cool'.

Blimey, quite a loaded interpretation that. There are loads of different shaped people out these with different tastes. Some may even like long low slack one day and prefer a more Jonsey position on a different bike the next.

[jameso]

There's been chat about the stack height of LLS bikes having not changed as the front and riding positions have shifted forwards relative to the BB and rear wheel, and how a higher grip position might be a benefit. Might not work for everyone but I can see some pros and cons.

Some may even like long low slack one day and prefer a more Jonsey position on a different bike the next.

I do think both work well in their way, and thinking that you might have all things in one bike (I know you can't but I like to think about how we can) I did wonder about what the higher bar would do for the LLS bikes. I have one of those bike fitter's stems so it'd be easy to try out. Got TBH, I don't see something this high-rise being a good thing but anything set up at the extreme is an interesting lesson/experiment.

[jameso]

I don't think there's any reason having grips behind the steering axis shouldn't work more generally off-road, if your steering goes towards opposite lock often and you're leaning off the back of the bike a lot of the time then perhaps it makes more sense than a conventional stem.

Along these lines

Long, not slack, bar reach considered i/o frame reach... Wherever it ends up, I like his approach.

I think he's bob-on with steepening up his bikes if he feels he's got the bar reach and FC dialled, or in other words is looking at the balance of the whole area. I've got to the same kind of place with my gravel / all-road frame and fork but it's nowhere near as extreme and I've nowhere near his capacity to engineer directly like this. Whether a steep-ish HTA is all-round better I'm not sure, probably not, it's probably more about matching the geo to the ideal speed and terrain a bike hits, which is rider-specific in many ways and a bit like a 'planing conditions' of a sinker board. A gravel bike, a hardtail and a 170mm travel FS will all have a speed:terrain combo where they feel both agile and confident, and where they feel beyond their limit for a rider. And loading a bike up can really change where or how that happens.

[fatbikephil]

A bit of a wheelie machine that I feel. But that is a good thing!
I guess a set of loops on a 50mm stem would put the hand grips in a similar spot. As it happens I was descending a very steep slope on the Jones the other day and a combo of it's short top tube, high bars, long wheelbase but moderate trail meant it felt very secure - I was doing about 5mph.... If the TT was longer, getting your weight back would be harder and you'd feel less secure. But if it had 6" of suspension travel up front and you were a nutter, it would be fine as you'd have just blasted down it...

[Alpinum]

If the TT was longer, getting your weight back would be harder and you'd feel less secure. But if it had 6" of suspension travel up front and you were a nutter, it would be fine as you'd have just blasted down it...

Yeah, it's the reach which must grow. Give the bike a steep STA for a balanced and neutral position whilst climbing (which shortens the TT) and a long reach so you actually don't have to get your weight back at all, but can remain in a neutral position.
That's one of the tricks behind large(ish) reach numbers. You don't have to shift your weight back in the steep sh!t.

[rudedog]

Yeah, short reach bikes are like being on a step ladder that you forgot to open up all the way out

[jameso]

Yeah, short reach bikes are like being on a step ladder that you forgot to open up all the way out

I like that, even as an owner of a rather good but very short bike

[fatbikephil]