So this is who lights fires ...

[Lazarus]

Pointless whataboutery.

is not bit more like shouting at the person dropping the sweet wrapper whilst ignoring the truck opposite dumping its load on the streets ? That is lets target biiger culprits than this phoo shoot for the problem

I do agree a top tumps of offenders is not helpful but fires in the countryside re not caused by clothes makers or advertisers - though they can help or hinder this

[Bearbonesnorm]

though they can help or hinder this

Is the purpose of marketing not to influence peoples ideas and choices, build desire and aspiration - in short, devise an image people want to emulate?

but fires in the countryside re not caused by clothes makers or advertisers

Quite obviously in this case, they very much are ... unless the dog lit it

[RIP]

It's pointless whataboutery because it's a deflection from the particular instance that we are discussing.

There is plainly a fire in the photo, or a fake fire, and as such on its own (dis)merits it therefore does nothing to dissuade viewers that it might be a bad idea to have one.

I'm very happy to join in on a separate new thread about the other wider issue stuff.

[redefined_cycles]

It's pointless whataboutery because it's a deflection from the particular instance that we are discussing.

I'm very happy to join in on a separate new thread about the other wider issue stuff.

Me too and I suppose we shall try to not bring ethnicity into the equation on said new thread maybe Such a shame that so many people never get past the colour and there is new reports explaining how even Ukraine is even more a crisis cos they're blue eyed and blonde haired. Another on national US news explained how we're now dealing with a civilised society, not the muslims or Africa etc

This chap links some of the double standard crap https://youtu.be/l3ZC7y7rvt0

[Cheddar Man]

so many other sites/books/Facebook pages etc which no-one has raised as an issue at all!

That's only because we haven't got round to them yet.

It's like saying one can't criticise someone for dropping a sweet wrapper in the street when there's whole landfill sites full of stuff that should never have been dumped and need criticising. Pointless whataboutery.

No, it's not whataboutery at all, do you think that the major group of firestarters outside bothies or in woods and fields are people who are on an adventure of some kind (however misguided) having read a book on bikepacking/microadventures/paddleboarding or people who stumbled an advert for some hipster knitwear?

The Peregrine advert is the easier, and I would suggest, more comfortable, target for people to get excited about. Publicly calling out people like the the author of 'Bikepacking' is harder.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Publicly calling out people like the the author of 'Bikepacking' is harder.

I can only speak for myself but it's not harder and has been done on more than one occasion. Personally, I don't look for an 'easy target' and anyone / everyone is fair game ... but hey, I've already said exactly this a few posts back.

[woodsmith]

It's pointless whataboutery because it's a deflection from the particular instance that we are discussing.

I'm very happy to join in on a separate new thread about the other wider issue stuff.

Me too and I suppose we shall try to not bring ethnicity into the equation on said new thread maybe Such a shame that so many people never get past the colour and there is new reports explaining how even Ukraine is even more a crisis cos they're blue eyed and blonde haired. Another on national US news explained how we're now dealing with a civilised society, not the muslims or Africa etc

This chap links some of the double standard crap https://youtu.be/l3ZC7y7rvt0

The " blond haired, blue eyed " comment was by by a person being interviewed commenting on how he found the war more relateable, not more important. That's human nature. In the same way that one person killed in a car crash in Yorkshire is higher up the running order on the news than 15 killed in a minibus crash in Mongolia.
The journalist says "not a developing, third world nation" and makes no mention of muslims or Africa or civilised societies.
While I don't deny that there is bias and double standards in news reporting , political commentary and policy, its important when highlighting these things that we try not to let own own bias distort what we hear and read.

[redefined_cycles]

It's pointless whataboutery because it's a deflection from the particular instance that we are discussing.

I'm very happy to join in on a separate new thread about the other wider issue stuff.

Me too and I suppose we shall try to not bring ethnicity into the equation on said new thread maybe Such a shame that so many people never get past the colour and there is new reports explaining how even Ukraine is even more a crisis cos they're blue eyed and blonde haired. Another on national US news explained how we're now dealing with a civilised society, not the muslims or Africa etc

This chap links some of the double standard crap https://youtu.be/l3ZC7y7rvt0

The " blond haired, blue eyed " comment was by by a person being interviewed commenting on how he found the war more relateable, not more important. That's human nature. In the same way that one person killed in a car crash in Yorkshire is higher up the running order on the news than 15 killed in a minibus crash in Mongolia.
The journalist says "not a developing, third world nation" and makes no mention of muslims or Africa or civilised societies.
While I don't deny that there is bias and double standards in news reporting , political commentary and policy, its important when highlighting these things that we try not to let own own bias distort what we hear and read.

Thanks very much for putting me straight

[woodsmith]

[/quote]

Thanks very much for putting me straight
[/quote]

Shaf, please see PM.

[redefined_cycles]

Thanks very much for putting me straight
[/quote]

Shaf, please see PM.
[/quote]

Replied and appreciated

[Cheddar Man]

Publicly calling out people like the the author of 'Bikepacking' is harder.

I can only speak for myself but it's not harder and has been done on more than one occasion. Personally, I don't look for an 'easy target' and anyone / everyone is fair game ... but hey, I've already said exactly this a few posts back.

I understand that from you, you mentioned it earlier, and I believe that you are more than happy to publicly call them out.

[voodoo_simon]

Publicly calling out people like the the author of 'Bikepacking' is harder.

I seem to remember the book was called out when it was originally published. I lost count the amount of open fires were published in the book! The pictures certainly put me off from recommending the book to anyone else.

I’ve also sent several messages to passenger too but they always get ignored, so despite liking some of their clothing, they won’t be getting my money

(Stealth edit for spelling)

[Cheddar Man]

This chap links some of the double standard crap https://youtu.be/l3ZC7y7rvt0

Yikes, 43 seconds in

Seriously people, don't watch this video. In fact I think the link should be removed immediately, surely it has no place on this forum?

[Cheddar Man]

Publicly calling out people like the the author of 'Bikepacking' is harder.

I seem to remember the book was called out when it was originally published. I lost count the amount of open fires were published in the book! The pictures certainly put me off from recommending the book to anyone else.

If also sent several messages to passenger too but they always get infinites, so despite liking some of their clothing, they won’t be getting my money

About every other page

[redefined_cycles]

This chap links some of the double standard crap https://youtu.be/l3ZC7y7rvt0

Yikes, 43 seconds in

Seriously people, don't watch this video. In fact I think the link should be removed immediately, surely it has no place on this forum?

Erm... I don't get your point. Suicide bombing in Islam is haram. What's the shocking bit about.... The video, oh, yes... it's presented by a muslim. I know. Yikes

[lune ranger]

This chap links some of the double standard crap https://youtu.be/l3ZC7y7rvt0

Yikes, 43 seconds in

Seriously people, don't watch this video. In fact I think the link should be removed immediately, surely it has no place on this forum?

WFIF I think the word at 43sec is ‘juicy’
However I am inclined to agree with you (first time ) that a bikepacking forum isn’t really the place for stuff like that.
At the moment it’s nice to have somewhere to go where we don’t have to face the ugliness of the world at large.

[whitestone]

I did a review of the Bikepacking book on Amazon. Here it is in its unexpurgated entirety (But I've emboldened the bits about fires)...

I'm not sure what to make of this book. On the one hand it's a decent introduction to bikepacking, on the other it sets a bad example. As has been mentioned it's neither a beginners' book nor one suitable for experienced bikepackers. The book is part way between a field guide and a coffee table book, almost small enough to carry with you but big enough to do justice to the many full page and two page photos. One downside of the size is that it has forced the use of a small font size which makes it quite hard to read, I struggle to read one chapter in a sitting.

It certainly isn't a "how to" book but the information presented about equipment and packing is pretty cursory: "this is how I do it - you can do it differently". It doesn't require a geeky "this item weighs X grammes and packs to the size of an apple" type discussion but some notes about adapting the kit you take for each journey would help those with limited experience.

The preponderance of routes in the south of England is perhaps best explained by these being more accessible for the majority of the UK population but to include only four routes in Wales, four in the North of England and just three in Scotland? Still, for those of us lucky enough to live in the North it gives ideas for rides "down south". Wild camping in England is technically illegal and on-line requests for "good bivy sites" are usually met with responses along the lines that it's not a good idea to openly broadcast them so to find such sites committed to print is only going to lead to them being monitored/banned.

The biggest sin of the book though is the use of open fires. If there is one thing that is likely to cause problems with landowners it is this. One has only to look at the resulting camping ban in the Loch Lomond National Park to see how those in/with authority act in response. I rode past a popular overnighting site in the Yorkshire Dales a few weeks ago and the scars of camp fires were all around, these almost certainly weren't made by bikepackers but even responsible users will end up being grouped with the irresponsible ones. With the variety of modern stove systems there is simply no need for open fires. The use of open fires really does go against the "leave no trace" principle that most bikepackers adhere to.

I'm slightly worried about his parenting skills: on the two tunnels chapter he starts out with three children but finishes the ride with just two!

In a wider sense this is very much an opportunity missed, the lack of guidance or even hints in setting up a bike for bikepacking duties could leave many scratching their heads in a frustrating series of "How do I ..." moments but the encouragement of campfires in the open countryside is impossible to justify.

[Cheddar Man]

This chap links some of the double standard crap https://youtu.be/l3ZC7y7rvt0

Yikes, 43 seconds in

Seriously people, don't watch this video. In fact I think the link should be removed immediately, surely it has no place on this forum?

WFIF I think the word at 43sec is ‘juicy’
However I am inclined to agree with you (first time ) that a bikepacking forum isn’t really the place for stuff like that.
At the moment it’s nice to have somewhere to go where we don’t have to face the ugliness of the world at large.

It's the start of a beautiful friendship, who knows, I may even give you details of when exactly in June we are riding from Plymouth to Ilfracombe in case you want to join us

[jameso]

At the moment it’s nice to have somewhere to go where we don’t have to face the ugliness of the world at large.

I agree, though the world has a habit of encroaching in on us, something I read this week that made me pause for thought.
That place where I don't have to face ugliness is more private, or is a hillside or a moment of mental clarity as I ride a trail.
The moment we call for a video to be take off the site because the content doesn't align with our view, the site ceases to be a place worth visiting. Allocated threads, fine. Everyone is entitled to an option and we might ask for opinions to be justified or they can have consequences. Isn't that what human interaction involves, here or on a global scale?

The other thing is, one questionable point doesn't necessarily undermine everything else that person says, unless we're looking for an easy out and don't want to engage with other valid points. Look for the overview not down in the dirt.

Anyway I'm not going to get into specifics. I'm just sick and tired of people taking sides and digging in, cherry picking and punditry, on every level. More now than ever. It's too easy and the consequences are clearly higher than we like to think. Feel free to tell me how I'm wrong though, I hope I am :)

[lune ranger]

At the moment it’s nice to have somewhere to go where we don’t have to face the ugliness of the world at large.

I agree, though the world has a habit of encroaching in on us, something I read this week that made me pause for thought.
That place where I don't have to face ugliness is more private, or is a hillside or a moment of mental clarity as I ride a trail.
The moment we call for a video to be take off the site because the content doesn't align with our view, the site ceases to be a place worth visiting. Allocated threads, fine. Everyone is entitled to an option and we might ask for opinions to be justified or they can have consequences. Isn't that what human interaction involves, here or on a global scale?

The other thing is, one questionable point doesn't necessarily undermine everything else that person says, unless we're looking for an easy out and don't want to engage with other valid points. Look for the overview not down in the dirt.

Anyway I'm not going to get into specifics. I'm just sick and tired of people taking sides and digging in, cherry picking and punditry, on every level. More now than ever. It's too easy and the consequences are clearly higher than we like to think. Feel free to tell me how I'm wrong though, I hope I am :)

All very fair points James.

My actual opinion on the video is a lot more colourful than simply saying I don’t think here is the place for it.

Whilst I acknowledge the hypocrisy in the different treatment of the war in Syria vs the war in Ukraine the views expressed in the video are way off the mark imo.

I don’t really want to expand further than that. I probably should have said nothing in the first place, so please accept my apology.

But if we are sticking to relevant talk in relevant threads then war is probably not relevant in a thread on fires near bothies is it? Unless the bothy is near Kherson/Aleppo (delete as necessary)

[woodsmith]

I'd like to think that people on this forum are able to discuss any topic in a civil and adult way without the Pandas coming out. Perhaps certain topics are best kept to their own dedicated thread but we all know how prone we are to going off-topic here ( and consequentley producing some of the most entertaining threads).
This isn't a democracy and Stu can always delete comments/threads should he see fit.

[jameso]

I didn't watch the video until after I posted. I was pretty confident it wouldn't be anything crazy but hey, could be wrong ( no offence Shaf!)
Now watched it.
If I thought as an empathiser rather than an sympathiser I can see how a slight shift in how an event is seen or reported and understanding how people use one thing to confirm another, could make the views expressed in that film understandable. Not commenting on right or wrong, just understandable. I'm not seeing the world from the presenter's pov and I don't have his experiences.
We could jump on it from a different pov that says it's wrong and not acceptable and escalate it. I don't see where that gets us. It just divides. But we're into specifics aren't we. OT and apologies likewise.
Nothing I'm saying is intended towards anyone here in particular anyway, more of a vent at a general thing and the timing was right (or wrong.. who knows)

[jameso]

PS @lune ranger I have a habit of using quotes to lead into a general point, like I post my thought process that the line sparked, then a later part of the post can read as directed at the person I quoted. That's not my intent and I should have learned not to do that or be clearer. Apologies if parts of the post felt as if I was talking directly to you.

[lune ranger]

No harm done James. I made the post so your comment was rightly directed at me.

[redefined_cycles]

No offence taken at all James from yourself or anyone else.

On a sidenote, I'm always happy to agree to disagree where it's appropriate and appreciate that everyone see the world differently. For reference, I didn't see anything in the vid as wrong but that's just me (and my experiences... which I'll not go into).


Edit:
Anyway, this one by Novara may have been more fitting and I'll leave it at that. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bRgs8MyG9bU

Apologies if I caused anyone any offence or the need to withhold any colourful language.