I meant barefoot but couldn't help myself. Basically hurt my knee from overuse injury on a 240 miler. Mainly cos of misalignment due to not using my special (to me, until that time) insoles as I needed to use the other special (merino deep winter) ones.
Now reading the ultra running book I've just been exposed to how and why barefoot running shoes are good for you - they allow the muscles of the foot to strengthen naturally rather than these muscles having to guess at what's going on between the cushioning of the insoles - and have wondered whether barefoot cycling shoes are the way forward for me.
Obviously one would assume that means going for standard flatties, but a quick search appears to show that there is such a thing in spd versions too. Obviously they're expensive so kinda defeat the purpose of going barefoot (type shoes) in the first place. But I don't fancy taking 8 weeks off ever again to recover a knackered knee (I have serious biomechanical issues going on and never walked or ran for years as my hip used to hurt, but I'm hoping to change that now with some self education and an ultra).
Thoughts as always invited and appreciated please and maybe I'll just go back to flatties.
I like bearfoots for loafing around and I'm even considering using them for hill walking after chatting to a guy about walking and bunion issues. Would the cleat not stop cycling shoes from being 'barefoot?' One other thing to bear (sorry) in mind is the tendency to kick rocks when you spin out (i.e. on a steep rocky climb). I once broke my big toe doing this whilst wearing a pair of cycling shoes with no toe reinforcement. I guess that a bearfoot cycling shoe would be pretty soft in the toe area.
Thinking about it when you are pedaling your only pressuring your instep / ball of foot so maybe a lowered heal wouldn't help much....
My Mrs is well into the whole barefoot movement, natural biomechanics and such like. She and the kids only ever use barefoot shoes and I can assure you Shaf that they are indeed expensive! Less is more apparently
If you have been using orthotic insoles you would need to devote time getting used to bare foot shoes for walking or running. You may well go through a period of discomfort as you adapt - possibly even injury - as you’re used to standard footwear you will have a gait and body position that requires support. I don’t know how barefoot relates to cycling, or even if there is any reason to use them. The ultra repetitive action of pedalling (especially if a clear is involved) with your foot held in place for hours on end is far from natural human movement anyway.
My inclination would be to go back to your previous insoles if they suit you and you didn’t have problems. I’m not sure that it sounds like less support is what you need in the short to medium term.
I dont think running = cycling. They're just such different biomechanical activities. I imagine a strong and well conditioned foot (or for that matter the whole bio-drivetrain) would be better (for cycling) but I doubt riding in barefoot shoes is the way to get there.
Running-wise I think I benefited as I moved to flatter shoes (ie with less drop from toe to heel) and with increased cushioning (old clydesdale) but Altras (a very "flat" shoe) were a step too far and I settled on Hokas and very thick, minimal drop, Brooks.
Cycling, particularly in cleats is rather an unnatural, incredibly repetitive action. Small wonder doing a mega ride shows up any tiny flaw in set up. Personally it's why time-driven, big distance rides just dont appeal. That and I'm an overweigt, unfit git
Thanks everyone for the comments. I will scan below exactly what this mathematician PhD type chap (so you know that he's probably well versed in digging through the literature to find the more accurate stuff) said. To be honest I didn't think there was such a thing as barefoot cycling shoes but the google search brought up a few spd types. Hence why I wondered and to be totally honest for the second time, it was actually running shoes that I'd been contemplating but didn't wanna open up another thread that's not cycling directly (forgot what I was gonna add here whilst I dwelled on whether I needed a new paragraph so it obviously wasn't that important!).
Luke my biomechanics are pretty bad to be honest and the over/under probation was looked into after I found my hip hurt from walking... for many many years. Recently as I've been exploring the running/stretching and all sorts of other 'ings' it seems to be managing a bit better. Anyway, without further ado... the screenshot. From the first few chapters he does seem well versed and he went from sloth (not fat, but lazy) to 70 mile finisher and lots in between without knackering himself up!
Pelletiere (2019), The Lazy Mans Guide to (ultra) Marathon Running.
Luke, regards the expense thing. Yes, I assumed he was talking about the shoes first when he mentioned saving money. But reading it again he obviously started off properly bear(sorry) footed. Blooming expesnive are them type shoes.
Just to add too (about the back pain) that it's whilst I've been away from the bike allowing the knee to recover properly, the back has started playing up again. I always knew my cycling kept my back in check but recent events have just drilled it home (or whatever the proverb is).
Are clips / spd pretty much the opposite approach to barefoot. Would flats and lightweight shoes not be something of a half way house given that they'll allow your foot to flex more and provide additional movement / placement options?
flats and flat soled shoes are the way to go with knee problems. you foot goes into a default natural position which allows you knee to move in a more normal movement.
I've moved to flats again recently as after 3 years of knee issues after a knee replacement I realised that SPDs even with lots of float were possibly the issue and it's been fine since.
However, I do still wear stiff soled MTB shoes for support. 5.10 kestrels or some old Shimano MTB mid boots I have just without the cleats.
The actual barefoot thing doesn't really translate over to cycling in the same way as you're just pushing between mid foot or ball of foot so a stiffer shoe to actually support your foot/angle is better and not an issue. The barefoot thing for running/walking is due to totally different biomechanics.
I go barefoot all the time inside and also have severe overpronation issues so try to buy sensibly priced minimal drop trail shoes for walking (rather than silly priced barefoot shoes), but have also made a conscious effort to change my gait and not to overstride which has made the biggest and cheapest difference along the linenes of pose/chi/ barefoot style of running. Not that I can run with my titanium knee.
Hope you get sorted as I know the frustration and pain well.
I can't see that it's a good idea TBH. Cycling is very different from running. There's no impacts to absorb as such, and you benefit from stiff soles to help transfer power to the pedals, which would probably be disastrous for running, but is fine cycling.
A 240 mile ride is always going to highlight any slight problem, and the thing with clips is that you're stuck in exactly the same position unless you get the hex keys out (which is great if it's the right position, bad if not). I would suggest:
- getting a bike fit where they'll look at your cleat position (though if you have special insoles, maybe you've already had one? In which case, stick with that, or...)
- using flats, for the reasons ton says.
Basically, I think you're jumping to the wrong conclusion that traditional cycling footwear is fundamentally flawed on the back of one extremely long ride with some knee pain. My knees would probably hurt after a 240 mile ride too!
I'd agree that clipping in is the opposite of the barefoot ethos. Better to go for a barefoot type shoe and a grippy flat pedal - ideally one with a concave platform, to match the shape of the ball of the foot. Then you can at least vary the position of your foot on the pedal to vary the position and the pressure points.
I have a pair of Xero Z-trail barefoot sandals (300g the pair) that I take on longer trips to have some alternative footwear for when I'm not on the bike, and for stream crossings etc. I have occasionally worn them on the bike during heavy rainstorms, and they gripped fine with MKS Lambda pedals (though these are not concave so I wouldn't have wanted to wear them all day I don't think). Xero also do shoes so might be worth a look.
Running is nothing like cycling though. Running impacts heavily on your feet, the data you linked uses this as the crux of its argument as to why traditional cushioned running shoes are bad. When cycling, your feet never leave the pedals and if pedalling correctly you should be applying a smooth increase of force with pedal strokes.
Also, for most of the time when cycling, you are sitting so your weight isn’t supported being by you feet.
Unless you have specific problems with your feet when cycling, I think you are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
RE knee pain ... I've had my knee go bang twice. Both times the pain was something else (I think Chew and Mike will vouch for that). However, the problem was with my glutes not my knees ... they were just a symptom.
Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:48 am
RE knee pain ... I've had my knee go bang twice. Both times the pain was something else (I think Chew and Mike will vouch for that). However, the problem was with my glutes not my knees ... they were just a symptom.
It's always the glutes. If they would only do their job, we'd all be knocking out centuries left, right and centre, but no, they just sit there doing nowt, watching all the little guys break themselves trying to pick up the slack. Truly the Jeff Bezos of the musculoskeletal system.
Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:48 am
RE knee pain ... I've had my knee go bang twice. Both times the pain was something else (I think Chew and Mike will vouch for that). However, the problem was with my glutes not my knees ... they were just a symptom.
Thanks Stu. Yes, I've been working on glutes and that's probably helped recover my knee/back slot
Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:48 am
RE knee pain ... I've had my knee go bang twice. Both times the pain was something else (I think Chew and Mike will vouch for that). However, the problem was with my glutes not my knees ... they were just a symptom.
It's always the glutes. If they would only do their job, we'd all be knocking out centuries left, right and centre, but no, they just sit there doing nowt, watching all the little guys break themselves trying to pick up the slack. Truly the Jeff Bezos of the musculoskeletal system.
I suffered from lower back pain and issues with my glutes which was magnified after I joined a gig rowing team. In December I started planking every day and building up my times from 30 seconds to 3 minutes. It has been life-changing and I now do a very small core workout each morning including a decent plank. Maybe consider it?
Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:48 am
RE knee pain ... I've had my knee go bang twice. Both times the pain was something else (I think Chew and Mike will vouch for that). However, the problem was with my glutes not my knees ... they were just a symptom.
It's always the glutes. If they would only do their job, we'd all be knocking out centuries left, right and centre, but no, they just sit there doing nowt, watching all the little guys break themselves trying to pick up the slack. Truly the Jeff Bezos of the musculoskeletal system.
I suffered from lower back pain and issues with my glutes which was magnified after I joined a gig rowing team. In December I started planking every day and building up my times from 30 seconds to 3 minutes. It has been life-changing and I now do a very small core workout each morning including a decent plank. Maybe consider it?
Cheers Dave. The problem is that I know what the solution is - I've even paid a physio to tell me on the odd occasion - but making myself do it is another matter. I've managed to stick to various routines of yoga/stretching/HIIT, but it always falls by the wayside eventually. So I guess the problem is as much my brain as my glutes
Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:48 am
RE knee pain ... I've had my knee go bang twice. Both times the pain was something else (I think Chew and Mike will vouch for that). However, the problem was with my glutes not my knees ... they were just a symptom.
It's always the glutes. If they would only do their job, we'd all be knocking out centuries left, right and centre, but no, they just sit there doing nowt, watching all the little guys break themselves trying to pick up the slack. Truly the Jeff Bezos of the musculoskeletal system.
I suffered from lower back pain and issues with my glutes which was magnified after I joined a gig rowing team. In December I started planking every day and building up my times from 30 seconds to 3 minutes. It has been life-changing and I now do a very small core workout each morning including a decent plank. Maybe consider it?
On my first ever long distance charity ride (leeds to liverpool canal towpath but the other way ) I got in the routine of a decent plank. Never really appreciated it at the time and never bothered with it ever since. That was over 10 years ago.
But now you mention it's life changing aspect, I'm gonna add that into my recently acquired pressups routine. Tried to add some stomach exercises (not situps which kill my back, but crunches which are almost as bad) but will now start with the plank from today. Thanks so much
Last edited by redefined_cycles on Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Path Less Pedaled bloke went through this process. He did a whole video on barefoot shoes for cycling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQDCNg2ilr8. Note that his tastes have got more and more rarified over the last couple of years so he tends to prefer the pricier options.
redefined_cycles wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:27 pm
On my first ever long distance charity ride (leeds to liverpool canal towpath but the other way ) I got in the routine of a decent plank. Never really appreciated it at the time and never bothered with it ever since. That was over 10 years ago.
But now you mention it's life changing aspect, I'm gonna add that into my recently acquired pressups routine. Tried to add some stomach exercises (not situps which kill my back, but crunches which are almost as bad) but will now start with the plank from today. Thanks so much
Good man it is worth it. I started at 30 seconds then added 10 a day until I got to 4 minutes 30. That was too much so I scaled back to 3. I do 30 press ups and 30 situps with it. I expect to look buff in 2030
thenorthwind wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:03 pm
Cheers Dave. The problem is that I know what the solution is - I've even paid a physio to tell me on the odd occasion - but making myself do it is another matter. I've managed to stick to various routines of yoga/stretching/HIIT, but it always falls by the wayside eventually. So I guess the problem is as much my brain as my glutes
I went through this Dave and the physio suggested signing up to a Pilates class as you're more likely to keep going if you've shelled out. Also having a trained person shouting at you helps to keep motivated - the instructor in my class knows I do stupid things on bikes so makes sure I don't cop out with the easy options on any routine. Sorted my dodgy back out and helped immeasurably to sort knee pain out as well although I got some specific physio on this too. Has also given me a solid six pack although no one notices except me....
Pelletiere (2019), The Lazy Mans Guide to (ultra) Marathon Running.
