I've never really got into running though I always admired and thought it would be good to be a capable fell runner. The reality of it for me doesn't really back that up but I do like the idea of travel w/o the bike. Simpler.

Anyway, never run more than a 10k run (no prep at all, couldn't walk in work next day). Been running short distances 20 mins or so 2x a week since xmas as new job has needed time that has counted out most mid week rides and I was starting to miss the exercise.

Can now do 5km in the woods or hills locally at lunch time and enjoy it. Knees are coping and stride feels longer/easier.

Just because I'm an idiot and like aiming at things I'll fail at sometimes, how would I go from this and good bike endurance to running the length of the Ridgeway, or how long would that take someone who was competent? 5km in woods with 150m height gain overall (3 'hills') seems to be a bit under 30mins. Ridgeway is 140km so that's not going to happen is it?

It could happen. Eventually.

The thing that most puts me off that is the amount of training required - and much of that would exclude other activities such as cycling as you still need recovery time. Even working up to a marathon was a chore for me. Not that I didn't like the running, just the impact it had on other things.

I'm not a runner, but going to weigh in anyway, because that's how the internet works Anyway, it might be useful...

Conventional wisdom would tell you "no".

I think the answer is probably "yes, but", with the buts being
a) how quickly do you want to do it: hopefully not very
b) how do like being injured: hopefully some interest in this

I'm in a similar position to you - would like to be a good runner, know it would help all-round fitness and have benefits on the bike, like the idea of moving quickly in the hills (no interest in road running). I've done the odd fell race, and (in normal times) occasionally do a Park Run, mainly because friends+brunch.

Last year a friend asked me to run a route round all the 2,000ft tops in the Cheviots* (the Cheviots being a not-terribly-impressive bunch of hills, this isn't a huge feat, but has a nice ring to it), some 24 miles and 5,000ft of climbing. Because I'm stupid, I agreed, and because I'm really stupid, the only training I did was a 5km run the week before to see if the ankle injury that was bothering me could stand running. Have to admit I really enjoyed the run (though significant bits of it can't really be described as a run), but I did pay for it, both physically in the knee niggles that dogged me for the rest of the summer, and financially in visiting the physio to sort it out.

So, in summary, you can probably do it if you're fit enough - but it might not be good for you. Multiple big days might be an issue too - it's all very well pushing your body to breaking point for one day, but going and doing the same the next might be a a bridge too far.

*Actually, he asked if I wanted to run all the 600m tops, and I talked it down (well, up) to 2,00ft, which sounds like the metric equivalent, and it is, roughly, but there's a 601m hill that adds on a lot of extra miles and ascent.

Edit: just to add, I've thought exactly the same as Colin. I would love to do more big days running in the hills, but I don't have any motivation to do lots of boring training on roads/suburban trails, and I also don't want to bugger up riding plans by getting injured (again).

Another edit: should point out I wasn't suggesting our approaches to training are similar: you're doing more than I've done, and at what seems like a sensible intensity.

Possible if you really wanted to but as Colin says the time commitment and increased injury possibilities are a big factor.
Biking to the Bob Graham in a year (not that I think that’s normal but it shows some pretty amazing things are achievable).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o_HSwreqeUk
Im
Slowly getting my head round some gentle off road running again too. In the next few weeks.

Recovery and impact on cycling, is that about muscle or joint toughness needed? Running feels equivalent to a much hillier or harder ride than HR alone suggests.

Daft bit of this is I can't imagine running a marathon but I think about running a longer bike route.

Have a look at the Spine race
https://thespinerace.com/

That’s over 400k, so what you’re contemplating is certainly possible.
It’s just a case of building up to it and being able to keep going.

I have a plan in the back of my mind to do the Edale to Hebden section at some point which is 62k, but that’s still a long way off.
Plus it’s a route that can’t really be done on a bike, which has been my main draw to running off road.

Keep building up the distance, adding on 1k each week and see where you crack.
I’m at ~12k off-road at the moment and at that point my legs have just had enough.

There’s loads of running clubs and activities will start up again soon. Running with others works the same way as it does cycling, as it pulls you through the dips and you can chat and the distance just passes then same way as an Audax.

james you could do it now. Just apply the same long distance ethos. Start real slow, feed and never go near the red. Mate of mine ran a marathon last w/e after his longest run of about 8 miles a week before. He just dropped his pace and bimbled. In the end still ran a decent sub 4 hour time.


ps. for all the haters I follow a local guy who does 50-100 miles most weekends. He’s ancient, really slow but just goes at it and he gets round. Like everything training is utter bollocks it’s is your mind. I know this better than most as I did feck all physical training for Tour Divide. I basically worked on my giving up tendancy

Dave Barter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:11 pm james you could do it now. Just apply the same long distance ethos. Start real slow, feed and never go near the red.

This is a good summary.

Dave Barter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:11 pmLike everything training is utter bollocks it’s is your mind

In terms of achieving your goal, I agree. In terms of avoiding injury... not so sure: injuries are very much physical and no amount of mental gymnastics will change that.

jameso wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:56 pm Recovery and impact on cycling, is that about muscle or joint toughness needed? Running feels equivalent to a much hillier or harder ride than HR alone suggests.

Good question. Both I guess, but joints are probably the tricky one. One thing I read years ago about running that's stuck with me: your cardio fitness adapts much more quickly than your muscular condition, which in turn adapts much more quickly than your joints/bones. So when you start running, you can quickly get into a situation when you're fit enough(cardio-wise) to run further than your muscles can handle. Subsequently, when your muscles adapt and become strong enough, they can write cheques your joints can't cash. Maybe this is an over-simplification, but it seems sensible guidance.

thenorthwind wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:19 pm

Dave Barter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:11 pm james you could do it now. Just apply the same long distance ethos. Start real slow, feed and never go near the red.

This is a good summary.

Dave Barter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:11 pmLike everything training is utter bollocks it’s is your mind

In terms of achieving your goal, I agree. In terms of avoiding injury... not so sure: injuries are very much physical and no amount of mental gymnastics will change that.

I disagree with the last point. As I get older I realise that just stepping back a bit and listening to myself make injuries very avoidable. I’ve gone from no running to sub 1:45 hilly half marathon in 6 months using this approach. I simply listen to myself

I'd say that's my experience, when I stated doing more running again last year my legs were the limiting factor not my cardio.

As for injury, that's the problem with running, cycling is just much kinder to the body. My experience was once I could manage 15 miles comfortably then my legs were suitably conditioned to be able to step up the distance, which I did as it's went from a longest ever run of about 17 miles straight up to 33 with no issues.

Last year I went from one run a week of between 6 and 10 miles to running 8 days in a row and a total of 95 miles.. although not recommended, it was though after the first few days.

Dave Barter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:37 pm

thenorthwind wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:19 pm

Dave Barter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:11 pm james you could do it now. Just apply the same long distance ethos. Start real slow, feed and never go near the red.

This is a good summary.

Dave Barter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:11 pmLike everything training is utter bollocks it’s is your mind

In terms of achieving your goal, I agree. In terms of avoiding injury... not so sure: injuries are very much physical and no amount of mental gymnastics will change that.

I disagree with the last point. As I get older I realise that just stepping back a bit and listening to myself make injuries very avoidable. I’ve gone from no running to sub 1:45 hilly half marathon in 6 months using this approach. I simply listen to myself

Fair enough Dave, though I'm not sure we're really disagreeing here - I was suggesting that whilst James could no doubt do a hilly 140km run in his current state if he put his mind to it, trying to do it at anything faster than quick walking pace would be risky injury-wise, and I think if he listened to his body it would probably say "don't bloody do THAT!" to running any quicker

thenorthwind wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:24 pm Good question. Both I guess, but joints are probably the tricky one. One thing I read years ago about running that's stuck with me: your cardio fitness adapts much more quickly than your muscular condition, which in turn adapts much more quickly than your joints/bones. So when you start running, you can quickly get into a situation when you're fit enough(cardio-wise) to run further than your muscles can handle. Subsequently, when your muscles adapt and become strong enough, they can write cheques your joints can't cash. Maybe this is an over-simplification, but it seems sensible guidance.

Yes, I find strength fades much more slowly than cardio fitness so had assumed the gains took longer there also. Used to get a lot of ITB pain when out for long days in the hills in Wales on foot hence starting with lots of short runs on flat roads this time. Now I can run down small sections of hill here in those 5km runs w/o that feeling that the ups and downs will soon have me hobbling. Actually a great feeling. But the joints may suffer after 15-20kms, don't know yet.

Dave Barter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:11 pm james you could do it now. Just apply the same long distance ethos. Start real slow, feed and never go near the red. ..... Like everything training is utter bollocks it’s is your mind. I know this better than most as I did feck all physical training for Tour Divide. I basically worked on my giving up tendancy

That's good to / sort of what I don't need to hear For training, I don't disagree with what you're saying. For a big aim like TD training got me the fitness to be confident that giving up would only be a mental choice not a physical one and I wouldn't have started if I questioned my mental attitude toward it. I really wanted to be out there. Still there's pace and dealing with unknown levels of fatigue and it's big enough to never think a finish is a cert. That's the appeal, confidence you can control or gain vs uncertainty. In comparison the Ridgeway is a very familiar route on my doorstep and there's sod all chance I'll train my running in the way I'd be prepared to train on the bike, so mentally it could be very different and physically it seems unrealistic. Zero confidence and higher uncertainty.

So, a lower pace - does that just become a shuffle / jog as you get to the 2-3hr plus run? (ha.. 3hr run.. laughably unrealistic right now).

Is there an equivalent to turbo-training for runners? Hill or stair reps to get the muscular toughness if you're confident in the cardio side maybe, ie training the likely weak points efficiently to reduce the running equivalent of base miles time.

PS watched The Dragon's Back last night.

Took me a year from zero running to finishing the Rovaniemi 66 (admittedly on the slow side)

I found after a month or two, once the legs stopped aching (think when the running muscles developed) I could then run the longer distances off road

edit - I only went running two or three times a week

Rom. 66, now that's interesting. I was fascinated by the Iditarod 350 when Mike Kloser first did it on a bike early 90s I think. Always thought if I was to do it it would be on skis though. Watched 'Safety to Nome' a few weeks ago and the idea that someone does the full 1000 miler on foot was almost like reading something from Carl Sagan, where it's impossible to understand the scale being described. All about your experience relative to what's in front of you I suppose.

https://transalpine-run.com/en/

Chicken Legs wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:33 am https://transalpine-run.com/en/

Ha.. me? Nope : ) That looks like the Cape Epic for runners.

Anyone see the Netflix film about the FKT on the Great Himalayan Trail though? 'Lessons Frome The Edge'.*

That and the Crane's trip is more like it, for me. The idea of having the ability to travel that fast and light, just for the experience. Still think a bike is the way to do it but it's more to go wrong and there's places you can't take bikes (like most of the trails in the Himalayas...)

* https://www.himalayanadventurelabs.com/ ... aya-trail/ - interesting read on that topic

jameso wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:39 am
That and the Crane's trip is more like it,

Those lot are/were bonkers. A real example of the meaning of eccentric.
Did you read about the bike ride Richard and Nicholas Crane did to ‘the centre of the Earth’? The place furthest from the sea - Urumqi, China by their definition. Very, very silly but quite inspiring none the less.

It’s good to know the aching legs will eventually subside, because my legs are still mildly aching now after a lunchtime 5k yesterday.

does that just become a shuffle / jog

Absolutely nothing wrong with a shuffle. I'm nursing a couple of broken bones in my left foot and for the first 2 weeks just walking the 3 miles round the forest was a proper shuffle (hop / limp combo). However, I discovered that I actually quite liked the pain ... more so, I enjoyed the mental fight required to carry on. Weird perhaps but I knew it wouldn't kill me, it'd just knock me sick for an hour or so

lune ranger wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:47 am

jameso wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:39 am
That and the Crane's trip is more like it,

Those lot are/were bonkers. A real example of the meaning of eccentric.
Did you read about the bike ride Richard and Nicholas Crane did to ‘the centre of the Earth’? The place furthest from the sea - Urumqi, China by their definition. Very, very silly but quite inspiring none the less.

Yes, twice, once as a teen after getting interested in bikes then again a few years ago - after Full Tilt, perhaps the most inspiring bike trip I've read about. The silliness as a source of a new challenge, brilliant.

PaulB2 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:48 am It’s good to know the aching legs will eventually subside, because my legs are still mildly aching now after a lunchtime 5k yesterday.

Same here. Not a great place to start big ideas from

My aims are a little more tame, I’m building up to a 10k from basically zero fitness. The good thing about running is that I can be out the door in under 5 minutes and back after a 5k run in the same amount of time it always seems to take to get out on the bike. That said, running hurts and is hard work, cycling is much more pleasant.

PaulB2 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:15 am My aims are a little more tame, I’m building up to a 10k from basically zero fitness. The good thing about running is that I can be out the door in under 5 minutes and back after a 5k run in the same amount of time it always seems to take to get out on the bike. That said, running hurts and is hard work, cycling is much more pleasant.

Yes same here - convenience gain vs enjoyment loss. But then a few runs that actually put a smile on my face (briefly) and realising how it may be a pleasure for some. There's the running equivalent of everything from joyless testers to dirtbag bikepackers, I'm sure.