This certainly is an interesting topic and it makes me wonder whether everything eventually boils down to our personal characters and to a lesser degree backgrounds / experiences?


(I've really no idea why I'm saying this but there you go).
At the age of 12 or 13, I distinctly recall deciding that the story I was being told at school, about work hard, pass your exams, get a job, buy a car, settle down, buy a house, have some kids and your life will be great, etc, was a lie or at least it wasn't the truth as I saw it. I've spent the following 38 years largely living life on my terms. It would have been quite easy to live a hedonistic lifestyle but in reality my life has been quite the opposite. My character (back to that) almost forces me to create / build / make / problem solve and as long as I can do that and retain my 'freedom' then I'm generally happy. I'll never retire because I've nothing to retire from. Certainly things will change over whatever years I still have but there'll never be a defined stop or start, simply a morphing or transition.

Our lives sit in our own hands. The thought of getting up every morning for the next, 5, 10 or 15 years to do something I don't like, to make money for someone I probably don't like, in the hope that one day they'll throw me some scraps ... scares the F out of me and always has.

some very interesting and thought provoking replies. thanks everyone.

when i take the plunge, we wont have a problem filling our time.
my wife looks after our 1 year old grandson 2 days a week, and our 6 month old grand daughter will also be coming to us 1 day a week in the not too distant future.

we have very low outgoings now, £800 per month will pay everything including food.
dont know how meagre that is in comparison. time will tell i suppose.

Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:19 am ......The thought of getting up every morning for the next, 5, 10 or 15 years to do something I don't like, to make money for someone I probably don't like, in the hope that one day they'll throw me some scraps ... scares the F out of me and always has.

Unfortunately this is what most of us have been brain washed in to thinking and doing.
You were luck that you spotted it early and had a way to get out of the loop, I wish I had.
It's no fun simply looking forward to every Friday evening not wanting Sunday evening to ever arrive.

i agree Stu, and John. i fucking hate my job now, moreso that i have to get up and leave the wife at home.
jelousy maybe ? it is making me a very angry man at present.

I guess we're all trying to figure it out in our own way based on our own personal circumstances.

When I went travelling I realised how little I needed to travel by bike, and my quality of life was infinitely higher than being a desk jockey.

It's worth digging into the FIRE movement - Financial Independence, Retire Early.

Much of it is figuring out what you are looking to achieve, is it doing bits of work when you are motivated (FI) or not working at all (RE)?

Lots of millenials have latched on the idea, but David Sawyer wrote an excellent book called RESET for the middle agers tussling with the same things most of us are discussing on this thread.

In all honesty, it's just basic financial planning and having the confidence that your plan will hang together.

We're working to financial independence at 46 and 47 respectively - another 4 years to go until we hit our number.

Once we hit our financial indepdence number, we'll most likely head off on another long bike trip before settling in Italy, and I'll then look to work remotely as a consultant a few days a week.

Best of luck figuring it out.

All really interesting stuff and some some great stories

IMO it's a good job there are people with SutP approach and also those like MaM and Stu. The world needs all sorts to keep it turning, to me it's just unfortunate* the way the world seems to need turning is a bit fooked up Maybe the issue is more the routes (ruts?) that people feel they've been pushed or landed in. Many factors to it but good education and the opportunity to experience as much positive / constructive stuff as possible, as yoof would seem to be really important. Sadly I'm not sure that's readily available to many.


* many other words could be used here I'm sure.

Early Retirement dream, that went toes up about 11 year a go whe the final salary scheme ceased, and to continue 5 fold increase in contributions, oh with hind site I could have done it, for 2 year until redundancy happened., oh the power of hindsight.
I've been treading water since, in and out of various temp jobs, now caring. Once the kids are through college/uni then we are planning to down size. We are not buying coffee /or the occasional sandwich. out, shop at local Lidl, not M+S, that was not me. Currently I am working part time doing a later shift which suits me. I have a friend who retired at 55, late start with family, so now busier than ever, he used to joke he went to work at 6am for a rest, running a factory..

There's two sides to this: time and money.

I've done the peripatetic lifestyle when I was (much) younger, kipping on mate's floors, hitching up to Scotland to climb, using dole money to live out in the Alps for summer, etc. That gets harder as you get older (your mates also get older and have kids and their wives don't appreciate a smelly tramp in the living room ). I can't say I've ever chased the "keeping up with the Joneses" lifestyle. To me a car's a car, couldn't care less about marque or model, hell! the only time it gets washed/cleaned is when it gets serviced I just need it to get me and my stuff from A to B.

Three years ago the whole office got shut down. I wasn't too upset, I hadn't been enjoying the work for a while. It paid very well so I'd managed to save quite a bit. I sat down and went through all the "baseline" bills: council tax; home and car insurance; utilities; heating; those sorts of things. That gave me a weekly "target" of what I needed to earn. I now work a couple of days a week (depends on the weather really) and am happy bubbling along.

Lockdown has effectively shown us what retirement might look like in terms of filling our time. I read somewhere that the majority, well over 2/3rds, of lottery jackpot winners went back to work because they didn't know how to fill their time. They hadn't been born into the "cash rich, time rich" set, their lives revolved around the rhythm of: getting up; going to work; coming home; going to the pub; going to bed and going round shopping centres at the weekend.

I find having a few projects "on the go" helps, things that don't need to be done in a rush so not something like replacing the central heating in the middle of winter! You can just take your time. Example: Last summer we moved the greenhouse to a better, more usable, location, we'd been talking about it for ages. Doing the footings took maybe a month; shifting the greenhouse itself was a couple of hours; asked the farmer if I could hook up to his drains and then took a week/ten days putting drainage in. I've still to finish off building the retaining wall that's going in front of it and that means the guttering/downpipes & water butts aren't complete.

I guess I was "lucky" (and I know this might sound big-headed) but I was good enough at my career job to be able to influence the roles I carried out for the 33 years I was there. I took on responsibilities, worked my way up until I'd gone as far as I wanted, then stepped back into a more technical role again. I enjoyed my job and liked the people I worked with. Of course there were the normal internal politics that occasionally ground me down, there were the years I was first outsourced, then insourced.

When the early retirement option came along I had 48 hours to decide. My wife was very supportive so we took the risk.

As others have said, I found myself at a real loose end. I started to look for jobs in the voluntary sector just for the activity/brain engagement. A riding buddy then asked me to help set up and run a website for a bike shop he was managing. Through that, cycling took over a huge part of my life. I've met, and have stayed friends with, loads of other cyclists. On moving to Aviemore that got me another bike shop job and then the one doing bike hire and bike taxiing. I couldn't have foreseen, at age 49, that within a few years I'd be both a licensed taxi driver, taking folk round the Highlands, and a Gold-qualified bike mechanic.

All of that does make me wonder what my life would have been without that first 33 years of corporate life, but then that also gave me so many wonderful memories, business trips to America, Canada, Sweden, Germany and France, the ability to indulge a passion for motorbikes, the ability to buy and have paid off a house. I think it's too easy to romanticise what might-have-been and forget the good things we did.

We should never disrespect those who have to go to jobs they hate unless you are happy to retreat to a proper caveman lifestyle and that means being utterly 100% self sufficient.

We need workers to sustain any form of society, we need them to make things and produce food. Sadly we show them utter contempt both in terms of remuneration and besmirching the tasks they carry out. It's a privilege to be able to walk away into a life of what you want not a given that everyone should do, because if we all did it then we're back to fighting each other for the hind leg of a scabby horse.

As mentioned earlier this is a great thread. It highlights to me that everything we do as individuals involves complex decisioning that isn't always easy for others to undderstand.

By definition any of us posting on this thread has spare time on our hands .

I'm a bit reluctant to do personal details, and also I'm sure there's people on here who ARE living a meagre lifestyle but not by choice so some sensitivity is in order. Dave's right - huge respect to those who work whether by choice or not.

Probably not going to add much that hasn't been said, but I suppose it's all grist to Ton's mill as it were. Still, I'm similar-ish to 'Routes I guess. Had jobs I enjoyed for 30 years, paid me enough to raise the family and keep a roof over our heads, with a few interests and low-key holidays on the side. Got binned off again (6th time, long stories...). Went to interviews but at interviews you need: enthusiasm, team skills, technical skills. I had the latter two, but was told I'd lost the first one! OK time for a change. Nearly ended up at Andersen Consulting as well so that was a lucky escape! I'm no good at doing "odd jobs for cash", so chose one of my main interests - biking. As luck would have it, our town was made a Cycling Town. I managed to get the Lead Bikeability Instructor's job - partly through contacts I must admit - after a crash instructors course. Never saw myself as a teacher, but it was on bikes and outdoors. That ran for three years, only just paid the basic bills. Their grant ran out, I took a risk and ran it on my own. Was meant to be "just ticking over" but I made the mistake of giving it my all (one of my many failings)- started more or less from nothing, and ended up with 12 instructors and 100 local schools of my own! Lasted 10 years – my longest ever “job” and packed it in last year for various reasons. Now “ticking over” on pensions.

I reckon Lu has it about right – get a part-time job and cover your bills. Work with nice people. Have a few little work challenges. This gives you time to think about any further changes. Unless you go full-on hermit or monk/nun you’re going to need some money. ‘Punx is a fascinating example of winging it on little money, big respect, but I assume you are looking at a “semi-normal” lifestyle Ton? Some say they hate "work" when they really mean they hate having a "job". There is a big difference.

As Bob says, work out all your fixed costs. You have to cover those. Mortgage/rent is the biggest change-killer of course and that’s right where The Man wants you – a wage slave. Or more accurately a debt-slave. They encourage and subsidise us to be home “owners” where of course we’re all home “debtors”! Everything is geared to locking you into a building and a location and a phone number – and stopping you kipping out or parking up, as we know too well here. The obsession with “home ownership” in this country has wrecked lives and the economy too. Minimise your housing costs, utilities costs (put a jumper on, share baths), transport costs (we live in a town and walk everywhere - get a shopping trolley. they're ace!). Council Tax is the one you can’t avoid unfortunately, but maybe move to Westminster!

Then allow some cash for food and drink.

Make sure you have an income that matches the above. I sent you a long PM a while ago Ton, dunno if it helped or hindered! Premium bonds are indeed risk-free but if you’re looking at 30 years “retirement” inflation will kill those stone dead. You need to take some risk as well. If you take an income from savings, you can’t deplete the capital. You might have 30 years to live. Manage your outgoings and long-term savings on a weekly or monthly basis.

After that, do stuff that costs little. Walk to the gym but don’t go in, then walk home. Bin the car if you can – a sink of money (that typo’d to “bin the cat”! Do that too – pets are also a sink of money). Volunteer for stuff – you’ll learn skills for free, and also maybe get to use equipment for a fraction of the cost of buying it EG. want a yacht? Volunteer on one that takes disadvantaged kids out – you sail for free, help people, meet people, learn skills. Don’t waste food, learn to cook from scratch. Learn an instrument, read a book, learn to paint, get an allotment, do conservation work, help old ladies across the road.

Forget “big challenges” or “big trips” – enjoy the details and the minutae of life and your surroundings.

Don’t do what Mrs Perrin’s mate does – buys a new kitchen every five years because “she fancies it”. Stop buying those ridiculous takeaway coffees and walking the streets with them. In fact stop buying any takeaways at all. Re-purpose things – Borderer seriously impressed me with her recent home refurbishments. Make things last – my bike is 14 years old, my little-used motor is 16 years old, my kitchen is 35 years old, my body is 62 years old etc etc.

But you need SOME risk taking and stress. And you need to be careful you keep social contacts.

Problem with all this is: if you have kids or parents to look after or take responsibility for. Just got rid of our kids, looking forward to farting around in our 60s, and now suddenly got four parents who need a LOT of looking after! Didn’t predict that one.

Also are you prepared to “live for the day” (frugally) or do you worry about your future years? Health problems? Care home (KER-CHING!!)?

Oh, and don’t resign, try and get them to make you redundant and give you a bung – a good buffer until you get sorted.

Finally, daydream – it costs nothing at all and has unlimited horizons!

We need workers to sustain any form of society, we need them to make things and produce food. Sadly we show them utter contempt both in terms of remuneration and besmirching the tasks they carry out. It's a privilege to be able to walk away into a life of what you want not a given that everyone should do, because if we all did it then we're back to fighting each other for the hind leg of a scabby horse.

Very true Dave and I believe the last 12 months have highlighted that perfectly.

BTW, anyone know why is the horse always scabby?

Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:20 pm
BTW, anyone know why is the horse always scabby?

probably got a virus

RIP wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:15 pm By definition any of us posting on this thread has spare time on our hands .

You speak for yourself, I'm at work !!

Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:20 pm

We need workers to sustain any form of society, we need them to make things and produce food. Sadly we show them utter contempt both in terms of remuneration and besmirching the tasks they carry out. It's a privilege to be able to walk away into a life of what you want not a given that everyone should do, because if we all did it then we're back to fighting each other for the hind leg of a scabby horse.

Very true Dave and I believe the last 12 months have highlighted that perfectly.

BTW, anyone know why is the horse always scabby?

They do it to avoid being eaten but it's not 100% effective

psling wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:43 pm

RIP wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:15 pm By definition any of us posting on this thread has spare time on our hands .

You speak for yourself, I'm at work !!

Well get on with it then man!! . That office needs a good sweep as well, I can see the dust and wood shavings from here.

Reg, i took all onboard from the email you sent me.
we are just shitting it that all the cash will disappear into the aether.

like i said, when you havent ever had anything, the thought of handing it over, when you get something, terrifies us.

Yes I can definitely understand and sympathise with that Ton. Maybe keep half "safe" (ie no capital loss), and "risk" the other half. There's many levels of "risk" too of course - quite a nebulous discussion in itself. Sometimes the biggest risk is not to take a risk (bollocks-speak alert!).

Some would say "invest the money in yourself - skills". Guessing which ones at this time isn't an easy decision though I must admit, as many an airline pilot would attest.

Reg as Peter says speak for yourself , this morning’s post was at 430 just before I left the house , this one is on my lunch

RIP wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:15 pm Learn an instrument, read a book, learn to paint, get an allotment, do conservation work, help old ladies across the road.

Choose life ...

Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:20 pm Very true Dave and I believe the last 12 months have highlighted that perfectly.

i thought covid highlighted things spoke about in this david graeber article from 2018 (which went on to become a book) on the phenomenon of bullshit jobs very well. [a 9 minute read]

We need workers to sustain any form of society, we need them to make things and produce food. Sadly we show them utter contempt both in terms of remuneration and besmirching the tasks they carry out. It's a privilege to be able to walk away into a life of what you want not a given that everyone should do, because if we all did it then we're back to fighting each other for the hind leg of a scabby horse.

while i agree with the first point dave makes, how helpful is the concept of 'well if we all did it'? if we all did or didnt do a bunch of things the world would be a very different place. should we wait until we all can and want to, do something, before doing it. we all live off the back of others, and i think we're all aware of that. im very aware many people are drowning in debt and stuck in very horriable situiations. (also im aware im being defensive here, sorry, maybe ill come back to it later with an edit)

industrial civilisation and anything and everything we do within it is unsustainable regardless of how much green washing has been used to try and tell us otherwise. theres no talk of 'what we can do to stop destroying the planet' theres only talk of 'what we can do to stop destroying the planet whithout giving up industrial civilisation and still living the life we do which destroys the planet'. only the latter be's packaged to us as the former. but thats another matter,

pass me whatevers left of that scab leg

middleagedmadness wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:57 pm Reg as Peter says speak for yourself , this morning’s post was at 430 just before I left the house , this one is on my lunch

Ya still had two spare minutes though .

shutupthepunx wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:24 pmwhile dave makes a good point, how helpful is the concept of 'well if we all did it'? if we all did or didnt do a bunch of things the world would be a very different place. should we wait until we all can and want to, do something, before doing it. we all live off the back of others, and i think we're all aware of that. im very aware many people are drowning in debt and stuck in very horrible situations.

Not wanting to put works into Dave's mouth, but I think hes saying that there is a difference between choosing to live a meagre existence and having to do so by necessity?

ok if thats the case then i absoluely agree

shutupthepunx wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:24 pm .. theres no talk of 'what we can do to stop destroying the planet' theres only talk of 'what we can do to stop destroying the planet whithout giving up industrial civilisation and still living the life we do which destroys the planet'. only the latter be's packaged to us as the former. but thats another matter,

What would you suggest we, as a society, do to fix things?

Without wanting to be offensive or confrontational, is it not a bit of a cop out to step outside of society and criticise without offering solutions?