• Remember when we were discussing ...

Posted: **Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:08 pm**

what barriers there might be or why there wasn't a more diverse cross section of the population bikepacking?

I suppose this must be a step in the right direction?

https://www.bikepackingroots.org/news/a ... eWxViZEw-k

Posted: **Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:32 pm**

Funnily enough, I do, was thinking about it earlier today for reasons I forget. Anyway...

Seems like a positive initiative, yes. I wonder whether funds are the main barrier to entry though? Maybe so, at least in perception (a perception arguably created by "the industry", but I digress...). But the "mentorship" side of things seems potentially more valuable.

Posted: **Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:16 pm**

This just solves the funding issue though, not the 'how do we get more people interested?' issue.

The research would suggest that cultural and (whisper it) class factors are the biggest issues that hold people back from doing stuff outdoors, not financial.

How about a 'BearBones Bikepacking Foundation'? We can all donate second hand and surplus kit, twice a year a weekend of 'Bikepacking' skills is put on and a range of under-represented people get invited by us to attend for free. Local shops can get involved with supplying food, we can offer up rides and general instruction and we spread the word. Maybe even get some kind business to supply a bike we give to the most deserving delegate of the weekend?

I am sure we have the skills, I teach navigation, and can probably do first aid too (you wouldn't want me running the bike maintenance workshop though, just saying!). In the afternoon a couple of groups go for a ride and end up somewhere where a big pot of stew is cooking, bivis up, night under the stars, brekkie and back for further talks.

Oh, and over 18's only to avoid the DBS checks!

I don't know, just a rambling thought about how we could actually be the change we are talking about and not get into another bickerfest about how that change should look!

Posted: **Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:37 pm**

I was thinking something similar Cheddar Man, though perhaps not as developed an idea as that.

A way of providing some confidence and basic skills to those lacking would be great, and I'd be happy to be involved.

Two issues we'd have to overcome:
How do we go about inviting people from under-represented groups, specifically? Would that be at the exclusion of other groups who we've decided are adequately represented?
Where would we hold such an event? I feel geographic location and access might be a key barrier too.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:52 am**

I can see that arranging something as described is appealing but the logistics are way bigger than they might first appear. My very first thought would be (as Dave touches on) - how to get those people who may live in the city and not have a car to a place in the countryside with perhaps limited public transport links? Maybe you wouldn't hold such an event in the countryside but I'd feel that was a wasted opportunity and a disservice.

Obviously, you can overcome any hurdle but there'd be a lot to overcome in order to pull it off.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:57 am**

Lee Cragie and the Adventure Syndicate have done good things in this area. Mainly with school kids though the ideas, principles etc might cross over.

There was an article in Cycling UK's magazine this month about diversity, some interesting comments in that from people who lead groups and have started 'get started' group rides in various minority communities.

Reminds me of the Italian church group Andy and I met on the TNR route recce ride. We asked about kipping under a large EZ up on a village playing field and were invited in for dinner by a guy in an old farmhouse building. He was part of a group of 5 or 6 group leaders who took teenagers from inner-city Milan out to the Gardetta area to introduce them to the mountains and natural spaces. That's all it was about - the effect of the open spaces. They had a base to use and some group activities to fill time, plus the large sociable meal times that Italians do so well. I thought it was wonderful how they'd got it down to such a simple aim. A few of the teenagers asked us a bit about our trip and bikes, camping out etc - I think for some of them they'd not thought of the idea much/at all before. They'd certainly had their eyes opened to the beauty of a place like that though, as soon as we mentioned waking up in the hills there was some really animated chat in Italian between some of them. Like the escapism aspect appealed? Maybe that's a strong pull for some living in a city.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:18 am**

Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:52 am Maybe you wouldn't hold such an event in the countryside but I'd feel that was a wasted opportunity and a disservice.

Depending on the city you may not actually be that far from good riding anyway. Not the end of the world to start and end in an urban area really.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:57 am**

It's interesting that your first thought is that 'how do people get there?', that sounds like a real red herring. Especially as you already organise at least three events each year and they don't start at Cardiff train station! People make their way to your place by all manner of means, so if the starting point is 'some people won't be able to get there' then it's sunk before it is launched. At some point attendees have to sort themselves, we can give them a drink but they have to get themselves to the water.

The logistics aren't that onerous, most of it would be self-arranging it will need some co-ordination, it's just the commitment from people to help out that is needed. If, say, 10 people on here volunteered to help out, and we all offered a lift to 2 people, that is 20 people who may get exposure to Bikepacking, and maybe they would be people who are already a bit outdoorsy and active, but haven't got the confidence to bivi or the cycling skills, but not necessarily so.

If those 10 people all took on a task, then everything is easy and if someone is a member of Cycling UK they can sign up as leader and grab the free organiser insurance.

'Yes and' instead of 'Yes but'

Look at the Exmouth Exodus ride, all organised by just a few people, three food stops (I organised the Cheddar one for the first 8 versions) and just about zero cost.

But this is clearly something that you wouldn't want to be associated with, so no problems, it just seems an opportunity to get the word out a bit.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:06 am**

Willing to support the idea above and contribute as best i can

Oh, and over 18's only to avoid the DBS checks!

Happy to bring my DBS[Enhanced] with me and the other security checks I require for work

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:11 am**

Cheddar Man wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:57 am It's interesting that your first thought is that 'how do people get there?', that sounds like a real red herring. Especially as you already organise at least three events each year and they don't start at Cardiff train station!

If the idea is to target people that aren't finding themselves doing this sort of thing naturally, then removing as many potential barriers as possible is obviously advantageous. If we wanted more relatively affluent people with VW transporters / vans then I'd imagine it wouldn't be that difficult an ask.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:16 am**

But this is clearly something that you wouldn't want to be associated with

Doesn't seem that clear to me. Approaching something with your eyes wide open and addressing pitfalls and problems early on seems like a sensible course of action. Had I meant

But this is clearly something that you wouldn't want to be associated with

then, that's exactly what I'd have said.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:21 am**

I reckon that riding from a town would be absolutely advantageous in emphasising how accessible a past time it is. Assuming you need to get somewhere first will be a barrier.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:24 am**

Richard G wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:11 am
Cheddar Man wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:57 am It's interesting that your first thought is that 'how do people get there?', that sounds like a real red herring. Especially as you already organise at least three events each year and they don't start at Cardiff train station!
If the idea is to target people that aren't finding themselves doing this sort of thing naturally, then removing as many potential barriers as possible is obviously advantageous. If we wanted more relatively affluent people with VW transporters / vans then I'd imagine it wouldn't be that difficult an ask.

Exactly - the people who already do the Bearbones events are the ones we're hoping to attract with this hypothetical event are they?

I think starting in an urban area, as Richard says, would be the best approach. There aren't many places where you couldn't get an inexperienced group out to some nice countryside via a relatively gentle ride, and you get the added bonus of demonstrating to the participants that it is possible to escape the city just by riding out of it.

Cheddar Man wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:16 pm I don't know, just a rambling thought about how we could actually be the change we are talking about and not get into another bickerfest about how that change should look!

Cheddar Man wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:57 am But this is clearly something that you wouldn't want to be associated with, so no problems, it just seems an opportunity to get the word out a bit.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:27 am**

I reckon that riding from a town would be absolutely advantageous in emphasising how accessible a past time it is.

Totally agree Colin but (quite obviously, I apologise for the word) that maybe means that only those people who already own a bike can take part?*

*like anything else this could be overcome but it is another one of those hurdles I mentioned earlier.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:35 am**

I first met Jenny Graham when she came to hire a couple of MTBs for some disadvantaged teens she was taking out biking from Inverness. This was just day trip stuff but I don't see bike ownership as a unsurpassable obstacle. However, if it's just about getting folk out there and experiencing the joys if camping in the countryside then I guess backpacking might be an easier start-up and then yeah, the ability to get far enough from a town to make the venture worthwhile becomes more of an issue.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:41 am**

I first met Jenny Graham when she came to hire a couple of MTBs for some disadvantaged teens she was taking out biking from Inverness. This was just day trip stuff but I don't see bike ownership as a unsurpassable obstacle.

No, not unsurpassable at all. As you say, there's potentially bikes for hire but obviously you need to be in the vicinity of those bikes or have a means of getting them to the start point.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:45 am**

Agree with Colin about riding from centre of towns/cities, choosing my local city, Brum, you can be on the canals and into countryside within a few miles, or you could choose urban parks and be there in less time.

As for bikes, perhaps speak to the local police and try and get any seized bikes before they end up being scrapped? Maybe the likes of sustrans or other charities (even schools?) could loan some

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:47 am**

Cheddar Man wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:57 am It's interesting that your first thought is that 'how do people get there?', that sounds like a real red herring. Especially as you already organise at least three events each year and they don't start at Cardiff train station! People make their way to your place by all manner of means, so if the starting point is 'some people won't be able to get there' then it's sunk before it is launched. At some point attendees have to sort themselves, we can give them a drink but they have to get themselves to the water.

The logistics aren't that onerous, most of it would be self-arranging it will need some co-ordination, it's just the commitment from people to help out that is needed. If, say, 10 people on here volunteered to help out, and we all offered a lift to 2 people, that is 20 people who may get exposure to Bikepacking, and maybe they would be people who are already a bit outdoorsy and active, but haven't got the confidence to bivi or the cycling skills, but not necessarily so.

If those 10 people all took on a task, then everything is easy and if someone is a member of Cycling UK they can sign up as leader and grab the free organiser insurance.

'Yes and' instead of 'Yes but'

Look at the Exmouth Exodus ride, all organised by just a few people, three food stops (I organised the Cheddar one for the first 8 versions) and just about zero cost.

But this is clearly something that you wouldn't want to be associated with, so no problems, it just seems an opportunity to get the word out a bit.

Oh, I hadn't realised you'd volunteered Stu to do it

Or am I misreading or have missed something?

Way to go if you are looking to "recruit" someone into your idea though

And the irony of seeming to harangue the bloke that, in your own words:

.... you already organise at least three events each year ...

Is also a bit

but

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:49 am**

I do think poverty has a massive impact. If you are poor then you probably won't have anywhere to keep a bike for example, not without risking it getting stolen at any rate. Most poor people live in very small flats or houses. When I had to keep my bike out in the communal stair it was constantly getting bits nicked off it - saddle, seatpost, wheel etc. Every time it happened it stopped me from cycling for ages, often months, til I could replace the part.

A lot of people's experience with cycling may well be from a commute and this is the time when cyclists and motorists can really wind each other up. Putting yourself out there to get abuse from white van man isn't really top of many minorities lists of fun things to do.

I am in the Social Distance Cycling Club FB group and it is great to see how many non-white cyclists there seem to be in the US. They obviously have something right there, but I am not sure what it is and how we replicate that here.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:51 am**

There are a number of charities that provide for youth, disadvantaged or minority groups.
There are a number of outdoor centres that provide for these charities.
All the admin/transport/insurance/other obstacles of setting up from new are in place within the above.

Offering a 'bikepacking' activity within the existing networks may be a more manageable way to offer the activity to youth, disadvantaged or minority groups; rather than offering to assist/volunteer at a new start-up, offer to assist/volunteer and provide a 'bikepacking' ativity within the existing established charitable network?

(The above comments are based on an assumption of providing for youth, disadvantaged and minority groups rather than encouraging those with an interest in bikepacking to get started).

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:53 am**

thenorthwind wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:24 am
I think starting in an urban area, as Richard says, would be the best approach. There aren't many places where you couldn't get an inexperienced group out to some nice countryside via a relatively gentle ride, and you get the added bonus of demonstrating to the participants that it is possible to escape the city just by riding out of it.

Start in Bristol, easy ride out to the Mendips, camp, ride back.

Easy steps........

1. Ask for volunteers
2. See where the majority are based and figure something out venue wise*
3. All volunteers take on a task (venue arranging, route choice to get there, base camp team, who teaches what, ride leader)
4. Co-ordinate tasks (getting people along, arranging kit from all of us, organising bikes, 'sponsorship' from businesses)
5. Do it, and review

Second time round......

Repeat 1, 2, 3 *this time travellers stay put and stay putters travel or some such thing
4, different people as now we have new locals
5, repeat

See, it's easy!

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:55 am**

I'd wondered about Cubs and Scouts in a similar vein (pre-existing, good demographic (IME), lots of systems and some great facilities etc).

Not that I'm all that convinced of the need, desire or value of the "scheme" being bandied about, but hey, HYOH

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:56 am**

Cheddar Man wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:53 am
thenorthwind wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:24 am
I think starting in an urban area, as Richard says, would be the best approach. There aren't many places where you couldn't get an inexperienced group out to some nice countryside via a relatively gentle ride, and you get the added bonus of demonstrating to the participants that it is possible to escape the city just by riding out of it.

Start in Bristol, easy ride out to the Mendips, camp, ride back.

Easy steps........

1. Ask for volunteers
2. See where the majority are based and figure something out venue wise*
3. All volunteers take on a task (venue arranging, route choice to get there, base camp team, who teaches what, ride leader)
4. Co-ordinate tasks (getting people along, arranging kit from all of us, organising bikes, 'sponsorship' from businesses)
5. Do it, and review

Second time round......

Repeat 1, 2, 3 *this time travellers stay put and stay putters travel or some such thing
4, different people as now we have new locals
5, repeat

See, it's easy!

OK

So are you organising it then or anticipating someone else to take up that baton?

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:58 am**

Cheeky Monkey wrote: ↑Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:47 am

Oh, I hadn't realised you'd volunteered Stu to do it Or am I misreading or have missed something?

Way to go if you are looking to "recruit" someone into your idea though

No, not at all, just that having this 'promoted' as part of the UK's Number 1 Bikepacking site* may be more impactful than a group of randoms trying to do it!

*This may not actually be true, but I am sure the BearBones is almost certainly in the top 63 Bikepacking sites in the UK!

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:04 pm**

No, not at all, just that having this 'promoted' as part of the UK's Number 1 Bikepacking site* may be more impactful than a group of randoms trying to do it!

*This may not actually be true, but I am sure the BearBones is almost certainly in the top 63 Bikepacking sites in the UK!

Most people would testify that I'm generally very easy going but at this moment in time, I'm wondering why you don't just f*ck off. No offence obviously.

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