'Low carb' diet

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Bearbonesnorm
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'Low carb' diet

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

For no other reason than, to see what'll happen, I've put myself on a low carb diet (I once did a month long Marines training programe for the same reason). From what I've read there's meant to be all kinds of benefits to a low carb intake but I suppose my interest is in the fact that it's meant to alter your insulin response. This in turn is meant to allow your body to adapt to using body fat as fuel, reducing the need for a constant intake of carbs (I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this one). I've not made any effort to reduce or count calories, just minimise carb intake.

I've discovered a few things so far.

I feel less hungry in general, inc after exercise.

I've lost weight.

I don't feel anymore tired by not eating carbs ... which I expected to.

I seem to be feeling the cold more than usual ... perhaps resulting from a reduction in body fat?

I'm surprised how much I miss eating bread. ;)

It's actually very difficult not to eat carbs ... you end up eating some very strange meals.

Has anyone else had a dabble with the low carb thing? How did you get on? In the interests of science I'll stick with it and see what else develops ;)
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gairym
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by gairym »

I've just taken delivery of 'The Paleo Diet for Athletes' which is essentially low/zero grain and dairy diet tailored for those who do endurance sports.

The whole Paleo diet thing has interested me for years (without having anything to do with sport/performance - more general health related) but I've yet to do much more than dabble in actually eating that way.

I've been on a dairy-free diet for the past two months to see if it'll help a stomach problem I've had for years and I've also noticed some weird meals being produced in an attempt to make something without using dairy :shock:

I'm almost at the end of the two month 'elimination diet' for dairy (lactose) and so gluten is next on the list (which is almost every carb apart from rice and potatoes) but I'm thinking of just hitting the Paleo diet now as it'll do all of the above and is supposed too great for endurance sports (and more importantly health in general).

It's interesting how ingrained (see what I did there!) our eating habits are even when they're not massively good for us (and how much of a pain in the ass it is to suddenly be 'the fussy one' when not eating at home).
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by Dan_K »

How long you been doing it for Stu?

I've tried it before for 2-3 weeks but not for an extended period.

I found that I lost weight but quickly gained again afterwards. The cold feeling could be because of a lack of fat or just a general lack of sugar.
Most carbs that we eat are quickly absorbed but if you're relying on slower burning fat stores, you could feel colder.

I stopped because I realised how much I miss carbs!
Are you eating more protein to compensate or just eating less? Do you allow yourself a "cheat day"?

It's an interesting theory and used in a lot of diets i,e atkins and slimming world (red and green - protein and carb days where they claim that the body struggles to digest both if consumed together) but I think basically, most people eat more than they need generally.
My brother is a bit of a gym freak and we were discussing my diet. I'd call myself overweight but not fat - generally stocky build - 5'10" - 14st - 34' waist. Ideally, I should weigh 12-13st. Anyway, he said that if he were to train me, he'd limit my carbs to 2 slices of wholemeal toast at breakfast and then most of my other meals would be protein.
This would mean that the carbs are burnt during the active daytime hours rather than left overnight. He allows himself a maximum of a fist sized carb portion in the evening at most.

If you want to experience misery, you should try the 14 day Copenhagen Diet. I did it a couple of years ago to detox and kickstart some weight loss for training and it was hell. Lost 1st in 2 weeks though and kept it off so it works but it was the worst time of my life.
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by pedalhead »

Stuart, I've been trying to stick to a low carb diet since May and I agree with everything you've said about how you're feeling. The weight dropped off me, which had a really good effect on my hill-stomping on the singlespeed! The thing I noticed most of all was that I wasn't getting the nasty blood sugar fluctuations throughout the day that meant I used to snack a lot. A 3 egg omelete for breakfast fills me up until lunchtime now.

I don't stick rigidly to the diet, but have almost completely cut out bread, rice, potato and feel better for it. I've upped my veggie intake and don't worry about eating fatty meats as that's where the energy comes from as I understand it. I'll still often eat simple sugars on the bike, especially if it's a high intensity ride, but I do find I can generally ride for a few hours at a steady pace now without eating anything.

The only drawback I have is...erm...as the Americans would say..."potty" time. Too much protein I'm thinking....
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I've not been doing it long, just a couple of weeks so it still feels very new.

My understanding is that the 'a colorie is a colorie' approach is somehow flawed and our bodies respond to calories from each food group differently. I've certainly not made any effort to reduce food intake although I'm sure it has dropped seeing as I'm not eating bread, pasta, rice, cereal or potato ... which were my staple diet before. I'm not adding any 'cheat days', I'm not on a diet, if I felt that I needed to cheat in order to continue then I'd feel that I was suffering. I'd much rather change what I was eating so it felt 'normal' rather than feeling resticted.

The idea that you're allowed to eat fat is taking some getting used to. If anyones interested there's some good meal ideas here - http://www.multiplydelicious.com/thefoo ... meal-plan/
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pedalhead
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by pedalhead »

Good link, thanks. I've been struggling to come up with decent meal ideas, particularly as I'm a fussy bugger!
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by adjustablewench »

I would recommend watching the horizon program 'eat, fast and live longer' should be on iPlayer. It shows lots of research to back up there recommendations. Too much to explain and it really is worth a watch.

Overall they achieved lower cholesterol, lower insulin like growth factor amongst other things - but the bit I found most intriguing was the effect on the brain. I try to avoid carbs especially those of a cereal origin, and refined sugar - but do find it restrictive to eliminate them together especially when tryin to fit it around family meals.

The approach shown I'm the program is a lot easier to achieve I think, and well worth a watch
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by zigrat »

Been devoting a bit of time to this one recently as it seems especially relevant to the fuelling requirements of long distance racing where weight of food is a real issue and you don't really want to be yo yo'ing from one high carb snack to another. It would seem that the underlying principle is to keto-adapt and be able to mobilise your fat stores more readily, this is very appealing since most (all) of us have thousands of kcals stored in fat and if you can use these then you have a virtually unlimited supply to use whilst exercising and therefore no reliance on carb drinks and gels, this however is contra to the opinions propagated by the people who make these thngs. There is also an interesting supplement called viper made from a wasp extract which claims (and has some evidence behind it) to help with the fat mobilization process.
There are a couple of good books entitled "The art and science of low carbohydrate living" and something like "The art and science of low carbohydrate performance" which are available on Amazon. These cover this in reasonable scientific detail and have good references. The authors recommend a high fat intake of around 70% of total daily calories, < 10% carbs and the rest from protein, HOWEVER, their suggested menus are quite "american" and don't look that much fun.
Am really keen to try this are there are a significant number of potential benefits - so to those guys who are on it any chance of keeping a rough food diary for a couple of weeks and sharing it here ? Also if posssible could people document hrs of riding and food consumed whilst riding and any other salient point or observations and we could try and generate a useful resource for the rest of the community.
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gairym
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by gairym »

zigrat wrote:Am really keen to try this are there are a significant number of potential benefits - so to those guys who are on it any chance of keeping a rough food diary for a couple of weeks and sharing it here ? Also if posssible could people document hrs of riding and food consumed whilst riding and any other salient point or observations and we could try and generate a useful resource for the rest of the community.
am doing that very thing and will post (either here or a link to my blog) after a significant period of trial.

would also be very interested in hearing what others have done and how they've found it all.

cheers, gairy.
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pedalhead
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by pedalhead »

yep same theory on the keto-adaptation here, mostly because I also recently read that book! Food diary sounds like an interesting idea, will try & keep one going for a while
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by Blackhound »

I once read that the average athletic person, like us lot then, could run from New York to Salt Lake City on the calories from our fat stores.
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I once read that the average athletic person, like us lot then, could run from New York to Salt Lake City on the calories from our fat stores.
That can't be right ... how do you explain all those folk who do a 15k trail centre lap and need to consume 3 gels and a couple of Go bars on the way round? ;)
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by Cornish Neil »

Interesting. I'm "supporting" my wife by doing an intense 20 day "clean 2 lean" programme with her - I thought it would be easy, only 20 days, WRONG! Meals are pretty much limited to protein and veg - lots of veg - With the occasional 20 hour fast thrown in and up to 3 short but BRUTAL workouts a day. For someone that lives on carbs it's quite tough - I feel weak. The other day on my way home from work in the dark wind and rain on the road bike I thought I was going to collapse having only eaten 1 salad in the last 24 hours!

In the first week I felt terrible and was very grumpy! think i had a massive sugar crash, I generally feel better now and am ok doing shortish period of exercise but can't imagine doing anything I would regard as tough (3 days bikepacking for example!)

I'm going to try a bit of a happy medium once its over.

Good luck Stuart - let us know how you get on over time.
Time would be better spent getting the miles in instead of fretting about how many ml of meths to carry...
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I think it really helps if someone likes cooking, there's certainly a lot of effort required to make things interesting. We've been eating all kinds of stuff, some quite normal with just a change of ingredients eg spag' bol' but without the spag which is substituted with shredded cabbage. Rice is now replaced with something made from ground cauliflower :shock:

Last night Dee made me some 'bars' to replace my usual flapjack intake. They contained lots of the following:
Nuts - Pecans and Almonds
Figs
Blueberries
Cranberries
Ground Flax seed
Cinnamon
A little honey, water and a few dark choc chips.

All whizzed up in a blender, put onto a baking sheet then stuck in the fridge to set ... yummy they are ;)

I'm starting to wonder if my body was already fairly well adapted to using fat though. I've never really need to eat very much while riding/exercising and can go without food quite easily without feeling hungry or sick.
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by zigrat »

MMM - those bars sound nice - recipe proportions ??
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by pedalhead »

zigrat wrote:MMM - those bars sound nice - recipe proportions ??
Yeah I was just thinking that :D
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by pedalhead »

I was PM'ing with Zigrat yesterday about this & it got me thinking a bit more about keto-adaptation and eating on long rides. I thought I'd post some of it on this thread as it's obviously relevant to the discussion. Sorry it's a bit lengthy...

But, the big issue I have is that, on those long rides, I invariably don't have the luxury of choosing what I can eat, or at least it's a limited choice (petrol station junk generally!). My understanding is that once you start introducing those simple sugars again then the body immediately switches back and all that hard-earned keto-adaptation is lost. I was recently exchanging emails with a doctor who is involved in this area of dietary research, is a real evangelist for low carb diet & training and is also a very serious cyclist. He had this to say about fuelling on the bike...

"When I go away for training weeks in majorca etc. When I am generally averaging 100-150 miles a day I tend to fuel on a homemade flapjack that's made with mostly butter, coconut oil, nuts, seeds and a bit of honey and oats to bind. But with a very small carbs content and much more fat than most flapjacks.
The only issue to try and understand is how your body deals with the repeated bouts of anaerobic metabolism you get in mountain biking.
I have used almost complete fat drinks for long distances of up to threshold road riding, but have come unstuck in group situations when the repeated hard efforts drew too much glygogen out, and its taken a carb refuel to get me back on track.

Its very hard to manage the whole situation, and takes a lot of planning. For instance, if I am off on the bike for less than 2 hours, however hard it is I know I'm best off doing it on nothing. But over 3 and I know I will need to consider carbs if there are likely to be some hard efforts that over the course of 3 hours will draw enough glycogen out.
"

Clearly, he is also struggling with fitting a very low carb diet into heavy training periods. Obviously, for multi-day trips & racing it's really not practical to make up your special trail snacks beforehand & bring them all with you.

With that in mind, and because I'm quite a fussy eater, I think I'm probably edging more towards a low GI diet as something I can probably maintain long term, rather than full-on keto-adaptation. I just can't see how I can stick to it when I'm reliant on food bought along the trail, which then undoes much of the work I've done in becoming keto-adapted (or at least I think it does!). In fact, I have a suspicion that, now I'm eating fewer simple sugars in my diet, when I do eat them on a ride, I feel that the resultant insulin spike is worse. Obviously this isn't an issue if I keep popping the sugars at regular intervals on the ride, but I'm not always that organised!

Also I looked up what Mark Sisson (quite an authority on Paleo) has to say about it. Very interesting article here that suggests a low carb rather than full-blown keto-adapted diet is preferable if you still want to have the ability to effectively burn both glucose and fat...

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/what-doe ... z2BMx8vL4C

To my mind, this seems like the best approach for long distance cyclists (imho), rather than full-on ketosis. We need to maintain the ability to burn glucose when it's all that's available, without upsetting our body's heightened fat-burning capacity that we've worked hard to achieve.
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

MMM - those bars sound nice - recipe proportions ??
http://www.multiplydelicious.com/thefoo ... tein-bars/

I wouldn't say they're strictly paleo due to the chocolate and honey but they're very nice ;)
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gairym
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by gairym »

s8tannorm wrote:I wouldn't say they're strictly paleo due to the chocolate and honey but they're very nice
our big eyebrowed ancestors ate honey!

chocolate.....not so much :(

still, the nutrients work with what I've been reading so far and so I'm definitely going to making up a batch!
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Tomorrow we'll (Dee) will be trying to bake using Almond flour ... getting hold of the stuff is near impossible and when you do it's nearly £7 a lb :shock: , so here's hoping it tastes nice.
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gairym
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by gairym »

we use chestnut flour - it's got a really nice taste.

not sure about sourcing it in the UK but it's worth investigating.
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

we use chestnut flour - it's got a really nice taste.
I'll look into that ... the almond flour seems to have a street value approaching that of smack ;)
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gairym
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by gairym »

pedalhead wrote:Also I looked up what Mark Sisson (quite an authority on Paleo) has to say about it. Very interesting article here that suggests a low carb rather than full-blown keto-adapted diet is preferable if you still want to have the ability to effectively burn both glucose and fat...
Thanks for the link to Marks 'daily apple' - there's a lot of info on there that's already helping clear up issues and questions that I had brewing.

Funnily enough I earlier googled about whether eating rice was ok whilst eating paleo and came across marksdailyapple.com without realising it was the same site - interesting stuff.

So much to learn/know!
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

So much to learn/know!
Oh yes, yesterday I learnt how hard it was to exercise after 2 weeks of 'low carb' ;) I don't think my legs have ever felt so heavy and tired. I know there's an adaption period but I was hoping to be out the other side by now.
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gairym
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Re: 'Low carb' diet

Post by gairym »

WOW - I have ZERO energy right now!!!

I am about 10 days into my new Paleo regime and my body is clearly suffering carb (sugar) withdrawal.

How long before I become 'fat adapted'???

I'm off tomorrow for a two day ride with a night in the woods but right now I can't imagine managing the first climb never-mind day two :?

Bugger!
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