Making it easier for the boy

[Borderer]

As some of you know, I do a bit of bikepacking with my son Joe (nearly 13).
He never wants to go out, but once I make him do it, he loves it and has a great time. He sings as he cycles, excitedly points things out and can't wait to tell our friends about it once we get back. So although I would say that he is not a naturally motivated cyclist, he does enjoy it once he is out there, and for that reason I make him do it!

At the moment he is riding a Boardman Sport E hard tail 26er kid-specific mountain bike. It is ally and has a 14 in frame. It fits him pretty well, at 5ft or 152cm. He has grown 5cm so far this year and I would expect that to continue as puberty accelerates. His bike at 13.6kg is only about 300g lighter than my 16 in Dawes ally hard tail. We do tackle some fairly challenging terrain at times in a bid to find new and exciting routes and although I carry the bulk of the gear, I do think that a lighter bike would help him.

When we first started as cycle-tourists, I pulled a trailer and carried a lot of gear as a way of attempting to handicap myself so that we would be better matched when out riding. This worked, but it did my knees in, which was why we have morphed into bikepackers. Now with less of a difference between us in weight terms (he still has to carry a few bulky things like his sleeping bag), I am having to stop and wait for him a lot more. This is frustrating as you can imagine.

So - I am thinking of building him a carbon 29er, but I have some reservations about that and wanted to get some opinions first. I know that Tom did the HT550 on a 29er, but I think that Tom is probably a bit more technically accomplished than Joe. Would a 29er be too unwieldy for him? Would he be better off with a 27.5 or 650b or something just now? Would that make much difference? I think he would be ok on a 15 in frame, but at the moment a 16 still looks a bit big on him, but I suppose it might not for long. I haven't ever ridden anything other than a 26er myself so I am a bit in the dark here.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I doubt wheel size is actually going to make very much difference - in fact, larger wheels may prove more of a hindrance, as they'll make any like for like gear higher and possibly limit clearance for luggage.

Given that not that many folk ride 26" wheels anymore, it should be reasonably easy to piece together a very lightweight 26" wheeled bike from S/H parts without costing the earth.

[ianfitz]

I recently built up a rigid 26er for Mia who is also 13 and exactly 5 foot. It was mainly out of bits I had spare but looking at how crazy cheap 26 parts are these days I'd be tempted to go that route too.

[adjustablewench]

My two have ridden 650b since they were 10 and 12 on their 13.5 and 15inch frames.

They never had 26" going straight up from 24" -soon I will need to consider what they get next (probably rebuilt frames that I still have from my bikes in the shed!)

[fatbikephil]

At that age is he not about to suddenly start growing like mad (I did!) so maybe best not to chuck lots of dosh at a bike he'll grow out of next year. Also light weight isn't the be all and end all whereas having something bomb proof is (I tended to hit trees a lot at that age). My first mountainbike I got when I was 16 (30 years ago this week!) was a Raleigh Maverick which weighed a ton and and generally crap so what Joe has now is several orders of magnitude better. I'd go with Stu's plan of throwing a S/H ally framed 26er together cheap as chips (I have a range of suspension forks available if required!) or checking out your local bike re-cycling place. My pals 11 year old has just got a rather fine Trek hard tail for not much money from the place at Stirling station
At the age of 12 I was on a grifter which was actually heavier than my maverick

[Richpips]

Iirc Tom's bike 29" weighed 13 kg stock.

[Karl]

Following on from what others have said the wheel size won't make much difference and could make it harder, especially on a small frame. The biggest change I would make is a lighter wheelset. Lighter the better (circa 1500g) and some lightweight fast rolling tyres.

You also might be able to find some rochshox Sid world cup forks or similar cheap now no one wants 26". That could possibly save you 1kg over the standard forks.

Think these changes would provide best and cheapest weight saving.

[Borderer]

Thanks everyone, some really useful info there, cheers. I will drop the 29er idea and try to see what else I can come up with.

[Cheeky Monkey]

I built a 26 for the boy who's about Joe's height and age. I built it with stuff I generally already had like several others (doesn't help so much if you don't have all that stuff). Dialled Love/Hate frames, rigid carbon forks, alfine 11spd rear etc. Only big-ish thing I bought was 165mm cranks.

Used it as a bit of a learning exercise though he got bored quickly so it took a lot longer / more sessions. He can change tyres etc now (ish).

I know they grow quick but a bike that's too big and he doesn't enjoy seems a surefire way of putting him off. The 15" frame my lad is on is big enough with a short stem, inline post and saddle pushed forward on rails so there's growing room. I'd expect a 29er to be too big / compromised frame and space etc as others have mentioned so it wouldn't be my choice. 650B seems to be the on-trend thing at the mo' and whilst I imagine frame etc would probably be OK for fit etc it might be a more pricey exercise.

As for getting a shortly-to-be teen out and doing stuff that they clearly enjoy once they crack on I'd be eternally grateful to know the solution, if you find one I've tried most things short of 2 sticks of dynamite and a short fuse! Good luck

[boxelder]

Just built my 13yr old a 29er based on a Ramin 4 frame (£100 at Evans) and the parts off my retired FS. It's pretty light and he now asks to ride further, up hills etc. Not been bike packing yet - as you say, the waiting would frustrate grumpy Dad.
I'd go 27.5.

[ScotRoutes]

I have a smallishTi 26" frame that I leant to someone on STW. I'm expecting it back soon. It's currently built with 2x9 gears, BB7 brakes and Fox 100mm forks. Given the likelihood of Joe soon outgrowing anything you buy him, how about you borrow mine?

[Borderer]

Thanks, that is really kind of you, but I am not sure it would be much of an improvement on what he has though. He still fits his 14in frame for now. I think if I want to improve things for him then it would need to be via lighter components as the option of increasing wheel size doesn't seem worthwhile. So I was thinking of a cheapo Chinese carbon frame (£165), bars etc and then some basic components as others have said. That way I can then hopefully just swap out the frame and stem maybe to make it bigger as he grows. I have an old Giant Terrago I could use as a donor for a few bits and pieces. It was a £600 bike around 18 years ago, and I think the rims and a few other bits on it are still ok.

In a couple of weeks we leave for Holland where there are bugger-all hills after all, so this is mostly me thinking aloud to what I will get him for after that. I do hear what htrider said re bombproof though, but I think carbon would be ok for him. He is not much of a daredevil.

Thanks again.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Bridget, you might find chinese carbon isn't a lot (if any) lighter than a quality S/H aluminium frame. As Karl said, wheels and tyres are likely to be the items which make the most difference. Forks are also a real consideration and bloody expensive - a rigid carbon fork will weigh waaaaay less than any suspension fork, so might be worth pondering.

[ScotRoutes]

No problem. It's a 16" Ti frame so likely lighter than he's used to. Still, you can make such a difference with lighter components too.

FWIW, this is the bike.

[Cheeky Monkey]

Easy / quick fixes, IMO:

Rear cassette - Deore to XT is, IIRC, a nearly 200g weight saving.
Forks - like Stu says, probably a kilo saving if not more (depends on current forks and whether he'll be OK with rigid).
Tyres - something kevlar/folding and higher spec can save a lot of weight and rotational mass, plus should be plenty of secondhand in peoples' sheds. Lower, smoother profile, "summer" tyres will all roll a lot easier than chunky steel beaded versions. Also consider narrower ones as he's less likely to need / want / notice wide and aggressive tyres. Maybe keep a bigger one on the front if you go rigid to help with the "loss" of suspension.

Bars might also be an easy one to save weight if the existing are OEM and chunky. They'll also help with a rigid fork as lighter / thinner walled ones will be better for trail buzz. As he is young he probably doesn't need (unless he has monkey-arms ;-) ) or care about the trend for 800mm wide bars. Chance to pick up old EA70s or the like for buttons in the "old" widths (think they were about 640 to 680).

[Borderer]

Bridget, you might find chinese carbon isn't a lot (if any) lighter than a quality S/H aluminium frame. As Karl said, wheels and tyres are likely to be the items which make the most difference. Forks are also a real consideration and bloody expensive - a rigid carbon fork will weigh waaaaay less than any suspension fork, so might be worth pondering.

Huh, really? That's a bugger. Nah, I don't think I could get away with rigid forks. Pity though. The rims I have in mind are Mavic I think, so shouldn't be too bad. I haven't weighed them though.

No problem. It's a 16" Ti frame so likely lighter than he's used to. Still, you can make such a difference with lighter components too.

Hm - that might change things!

Easy / quick fixes, IMO:

Rear cassette - Deore to XT is, IIRC, a nearly 200g weight saving.
Forks - like Stu says, probably a kilo saving if not more (depends on current forks and whether he'll be OK with rigid).
Tyres - something kevlar/folding and higher spec can save a lot of weight and rotational mass, plus should be plenty of secondhand in peoples' sheds. Lower, smoother profile, "summer" tyres will all roll a lot easier than chunky steel beaded versions. Also consider narrower ones as he's less likely to need / want / notice wide and aggressive tyres. Maybe keep a bigger one on the front if you go rigid to help with the "loss" of suspension.

Bars might also be an easy one to save weight if the existing are OEM and chunky. They'll also help with a rigid fork as lighter / thinner walled ones will be better for trail buzz. As he is young he probably doesn't need (unless he has monkey-arms ;-) ) or care about the trend for 800mm wide bars. Chance to pick up old EA70s or the like for buttons in the "old" widths (think they were about 640 to 680).

Useful info there, thanks. I am learning a lot. We only use knobbly tyres for Glentress and the like - normally we use cheapo Shwalbe city slicks - 1.5 on the front and 1.95 on the back. That way we hopefully keep grip and stability without too much rolling resistance.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Useful info there, thanks. I am learning a lot. We only use knobbly tyres for Glentress and the like - normally we use cheapo Shwalbe city slicks - 1.5 on the front and 1.95 on the back. That way we hopefully keep grip and stability without too much rolling resistance.

The things weigh a ton ... and why would you fit a narrower tyre to the front? Does not compute.

[Borderer]

I guess it was the other way round - I fitted a wider tyre to the back in the hope that would give better grip going uphill on dusty trails in France and Portugal.

I shall look to replace his with some lighter ones then and keep the 1.5s on my bike for now.

[Karl]

As stu says...fatter tyre of the front, skinny on the rear. Reduce the rotating mass. Usually from experience Mavics off the shelf wheels arnt that lightweight. Better to weight them as I think that's your best bet.

Another option is let joe ride off up hills 1st. Give him a good headstart then chase him down. That way you get good exercise and he feels accomplished by beating you up the hills...win win!

[Borderer]

No problem. It's a 16" Ti frame so likely lighter than he's used to. Still, you can make such a difference with lighter components too.

FWIW, this is the bike.

That is rather nice!

[Borderer]

As stu says...fatter tyre of the front, skinny on the rear. Reduce the rotating mass. Usually from experience Mavics off the shelf wheels arnt that lightweight. Better to weight them as I think that's your best bet.

Another option is let joe ride off up hills 1st. Give him a good headstart then chase him down. That way you get good exercise and he feels accomplished by beating you up the hills...win win!

Physics was never my strong suit. I can't wrap my head around that at all.
Yes, more motivation and coke (the stuff in red tins) for him would be cheaper and easier.....

[Borderer]

I have to say in the Schwalbe tyre's defence though - we have put over 2000 miles on them in the past 12 months and had not one single puncture. So there's that.

Ok - to turn this around - what sort of target weight do you think I could expect to achieve if I do the things you have all mentioned?

[Bearbonesnorm]

I don't think something around 23lb should be too difficult, however that might involve rigid forks or something like SIDs. I really wouldn't dismiss rigid too quickly, decent carbon forks work very well to dampen things out and a tyre half an inch wider than present, set at (what I suspect would be) lower pressures will do nearly as much as a cheap sus' fork.

[Borderer]

Nice one, thanks.

[psling]

What sort of bike would Joe like?