Kit lust.

[fatbikephil]

It's all about being a member of that exclusive club
Thing is we are talking about the Ti frame but the steel framesets are £1700 - a lorra dosh for a Taiwanese made steel frame. I mean they are nicely made compared to say a surly (the prices of which have crept up considerably in recent years) but when you compare them to a Cotic they are over priced, nay doot. Your paying for Jeffs nous and alternative way of doing things - it could be easily copied but very few (saving Stooge and a few custom outfits) seem willing to go outside the geo norms...

[Lazarus]

I think only their niche appeal and uniqueness prevents competition undercutting him

I assume if you want a jones frame you want a Jones frame and not a Planet X Smith frame - which they would no doubt wittily call it
Having never ridden one I cannot comment much but its not something i have ever lusted after as I have no desire to ride off road rigid [ even though i do now do it sometimes]
Aesthetically they are rather nice

[Alpinum]

Just trying to point out that 25 % at that scale is a lot of money. Enough to buy most folks a bike they'd be very happy with.

Of course it dampens the ridiculousness when a rigid ti frame (and fork) is compared to a full sus carbon frame (and fork). But you're right, both are just as basis to build up a bike in the end.
And to highlight the ridiculousness on the other hand, you could compare it to a decent alloy hardtail which costs about the mentioned 25 % price difference.

One could suggest to compare the price/value of a rigid ti frame (and fork) made/sold by Jones' with another rigid ti frame (and fork) made by another manufacturer in NA (just guessing Jones are made there).
That's where my "rip off" comment comes from.

I guess kit lust often comes with that very high (in my words ridiculous) price label.

Make something a bit special and put a stupidly high price label on it and it'll sell well.

I like to think I'm not affected of this, most on here probably believe that of themselves too I think we're (mostly) wrong.

[Alpinum]

It's all about being a member of that exclusive club
Thing is we are talking about the Ti frame but the steel framesets are £1700 - a lorra dosh for a Taiwanese made steel frame. I mean they are nicely made compared to say a surly (the prices of which have crept up considerably in recent years) but when you compare them to a Cotic they are over priced, nay doot. Your paying for Jeffs nous and alternative way of doing things - it could be easily copied but very few (saving Stooge and a few custom outfits) seem willing to go outside the geo norms...

There are quite a few brands that went outside the norm with geos and tubing types, make absolutely stunning and high quality steel frames and sell for a little more than 1/3 of 1700 quid.

It's okay to ride boutique.

[jameso]

Is it not really the end user that needs to understand?

Maybe, I meant the brand / designer needs to understand what they're doing to get a comparable end result - I know it's subjective but imo the Jones is a very well-designed bike esp considering it's a tricky brief or aim. You don't end up with a design like that which geos against conventional wisdom without understanding what/why, lots of time-consuming experimentation and balancing up the compromises well.

One could suggest to compare the price/value of a rigid ti frame (and fork) made/sold by Jones' with another rigid ti frame (and fork) made by another manufacturer in NA (just guessing Jones are made there).
That's where my "rip off" comment comes from.

I don't disagree. XACD make a copy and you could get one for maybe £800 + duties. It's fair to say a Jones spaceframe with a truss fork is almost 2 frames when the process is concerned, 1 1/2 maybe, the tooling and production time costs are higher, alignment is trickier etc but as a % cost hike over a conventional frame I can't be sure but whatever, his diamond frame bikes are still expensive.

He insists on shipping them from Asia to the USA for QC then on to other destinations, that's going to add cost. Jeff has a margin and the retailer has a margin, that adds to the RRP but many buyers do want the custom spec build and shop service. They end up expensive frames. Rip-off? That could suggest a buyer's unaware of what they're buying. I do think the 2 Jones framesets I have were expensive but I still bought them vs other bikes I can have, a good number of them at trade price. I know where they're made, I've been to the factory a few times - used get some frames made there. I could take a good guess at his cost price. Still - they ride like nothing else (not better, just unique). And the steel diamond frame I have is now >10 years old, was about a grand F+F. Has done really high mileage and £ per mile and £ per great ride experience is the best value bike I've owned. Others have had them and don't like them. A brand should know what it wants to do, be good at it, go in a clear direction and be consistent. You'll polarise opinions and prompt debate and that's a good sign. I think he's doing well there, a big part of why he can get a premium price for them.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Yes, I think it simply comes down to how we view things on a personal level. Things like Snap-on tools are viewed by many as over priced yet for others, they're quite happy to pay for the initial quality and also the longterm back up. In our house, the same is true of food, if it's cheap and comes in a packet with a long list of ingredients then we don't eat it ... although I suppose that's less about cost / money as fresh ingredients and a little time often isn't that much more expensive ... spanners still stands though and let's not forget that sometimes it's just nice to have something nice. My brother has some handmade suits. I see no value in them but he must.

[jameso]

Quality = 'does it meet the spec'
And spec is something we can define for ourselves.
Value = Am I prepared to pay for that level of spec.

[Lazarus]

Pretty sure we can all justify why we spend what we spend on a bike or a hand made suit

Realistically none of us actually "need" them its just they bring us joy and we can afford them and the more we spend the more we convince ourselves it was a high quality item [ I am including myself in this assessment]

[jameso]

the more we spend the more we convince ourselves it was a high quality item

True... Though I can say in the case of my Jones I know I paid more for something that isn't fundamentally better 'quality' than one of the Genesis frames I used to ride. But it has a different sort of value. There's some great podcasts with Seth Godin about marketing and brand value - worth listening to him.

[fatbikephil]

https://bikepacking.com/news/fresh-spd- ... o-studios/
I'm sure some on here will lust after these
And a bargain at 300 bucks

[voodoo_simon]

I wanted a Jones for years and years, kept looking at them and seeing how I could afford one but in the last few years, they’ve not bothered me one bit!

No idea what’s changed, maybe finding out that lightweight bikes suit my need well (not saying better!) but now I see them and it’s just m’eh

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'm sure some on here will lust after these
And a bargain at 300 bucks

I suppose if nowt else, they put pay to the whole argument about 'pulling up' when clipped in

[Alpinum]

Pretty sure we can all justify why we spend what we spend on a bike or a hand made suit
Realistically none of us actually "need" them its just they bring us joy and we can afford them and the more we spend the more we convince ourselves it was a high quality item [ I am including myself in this assessment]

Precisely. It took some to admit to myself that the 850 quid steel frame and fork (made in TW) of a very strong brand (especially in the bikepacking world) was of very poor quality. New, rides okay, looks nice from afar... but everytime I need to adjust saddle height my heart hurts. Removing the wheel... ouch. No matter how strongly built a brand is, I want higher quality, durability, ease of use and responsive, understanding support. The marketing part doesn't help me ride across mountains and connect with nature.

I'm surprised to read Jones' are made in TW.
On/in here I read about cracked/damaged Jones frames. Hard to blame the manufacturer for possibly isolated failures, but I also remember a Jones owner looking for an axle, which are apparently hard to get.
For the asked price one should be able to just write an email or make a call to the manufacturer/distributor, have a nice and friendly chat and find the axle in the box a couple of days later. Actually have Jeff come by personally and give a massage with unicorn oil.

As a crash replacement covered by my insurance I got an Ibis Ripley frame from the closest shop selling that brand. What a mistake. Proper rubbish shop. Thankfully the distributor is superb. I used to race the Glacier Bike DH in Saas Fee with the/one of the founder, which doesn't make a distributor good, but likely to be full of riders with a true understanding of riders needs.

I guess my kit lust comes with knowing how well products of a certain brand work for me and how good their support is.

My big Crux and my girlfriends BDEL rucksacks are falling apart, have needed to be fixed multiple times and for week or multiweek long packrafting trips we need new ones. Having not been too happy with what we had, we've been looking at other options and tried and tested some. Also HMG.
I don't really want to buy one of their products. I just don't like the brand. No idea why. Their products seem to be very good.
Now their rucksack just seemed to tick our boxes best and sooner than later, we'll very likely get us two large rucksacks.

Hi, my name is Gian. I have a reluctant kit lust.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Just thinking after reading Gian's post ... is lust irrational? Once we begin to make purchasing decisions based on prior experience and our actual requirements does it cease to be lust? I dunno.

[RIP]

is lust irrational?

My French teacher in 5th Year... it seemed totally rational at the time I must say.

[fatbikephil]

Reg makes a pertinent point (as usual!)
When it comes to affairs of the heart, common sense and logic go out the window....

Alpinum - share the company that makes rubbish steel frames!
I think if you live in the States you get a very good service from Jones. Over here less so. The importer was a bit useless by all accounts and when he dropped it no-one else was interested apparently so you have to deal direct with all the hassles of import duties and international couriers. The complete bikes were meant to ship direct to the importer from Taiwan but as there isn't one these then have to go via the states removing most of the 'value' from them. Dave in bothy bikes where I got my frame from has gotten to know Jeff very well and gets good service from him but he told me he could sell far more Jones framesets than he can get his hands on....

[Alpinum]

Alpinum - share the company that makes rubbish steel frames!

Can message you, but since I've had a rant or two on here about "that" brand already I shall stop beating this dead horse.
Swiss customer support was rubbish, the shop jumped in.
Still and despite many happy owners, not giving them my money anymore.

Dave in bothy bikes where I got my frame from has gotten to know Jeff very well and gets good service from him but [...]

always good to have a supportive shop.

[jameso]

For the asked price one should be able to just write an email or make a call to the manufacturer/distributor, have a nice and friendly chat and find the axle in the box a couple of days later. Actually have Jeff come by personally and give a massage with unicorn oil.

Thankfully I didn't get the unicorn oil rub down... but I can't fault the service I got from Jones over the warranty point on my frame and when ordering a spare hanger. As good as you could expect, Jeff and Sheila were really helpful on the warranty point. I expect you'll find good and bad service stories from every brand. I know as a company that was a 2 person team and is now an international business they're having growing pains and demand/volume/distribution challenges.

On/in here I read about cracked/damaged Jones frames. Hard to blame the manufacturer for possibly isolated failures, but I also remember a Jones owner looking for an axle, which are apparently hard to get.

A few of the 1st gen Ti TW frames were replaced after cracking fairly soon. They don't have a rep for breaking generally though. Front TAs are a rare spec but... you bought a bike with a 150 front hub : ) your local shop prob won't have them but it's a stock Wolftooth TA spec. Same with the headsets or the prev model front 135 hubs, non-standard but you kind of know that when you buy one. They're still stocked at Jones though. If you have a nice non-taper HT MTB from 10 yrs ago and need a new fork now you'll may well find yourself less supported than a small brand who have proprietary parts that they're invested in, though there's got to be a time when you need to stock up if you want to keep most framesets running 12-15yrs or more.