How many miles do we think a gravel route would need to be for an ITT?

FWIW the Ridgeway Double is 185 miles or so, 14-16hrs is a quick time and for plenty of riders it makes a good weekend bikepacking route. It's probably one of the easier (easiest?) 'ITT's out there though. So, anything over 18-20hrs for a quicker rider seems credible? Personally I think much under 20 to 24hrs for a competent rider may be a bit short or stretching 'bikepacking route' a little but an ITT is different. A road TT can be 10 miles afterall and a tough, credible, elegant 50 mile off-road route in the Lake District could be a good ITT.

If it needs to force a stop and carrying of sleeping gear, 36hrs plus? That's a long way on gravel, 350+ miles.

jameso wrote:

How many miles do we think a gravel route would need to be for an ITT?

FWIW the Ridgeway Double is 185 miles or so, 14-16hrs is a quick time and for plenty of riders it makes a good weekend bikepacking route. It's probably one of the easier (easiest?) 'ITT's out there though. So, anything over 18-20hrs for a quicker rider seems credible? Personally I think much under 20 to 24hrs for a competent rider may be a bit short or stretching 'bikepacking route' a little but an ITT is different. A road TT can be 10 miles afterall and a tough, credible, elegant 50 mile off-road route in the Lake District could be a good ITT.

If it needs to force a stop and carrying of sleeping gear, 36hrs plus? That's a long way on gravel, 350+ miles.

And consider the rough rule of thumb that the slowest riders will take twice as long as the faster ones. Seems reasonably accurate across most ultra disciplines.

jameso wrote:
Sue the TNR if you like, a copy of the 2017 accounts is below

Incoming - £0
Outgoing - £385
---------------------
Balance - £385
Net worth - F*** all

That put a thought into my head. If an event were organised by a company with limited liability, say Torino-Nice Rally Ltd, then that would be the entity liable if something went wrong, would it not? There'd be no further liability on the director/owner of that company, since that's what limited liability means, so beyond the assets owned by the company (effectively none) there'd be nothing for anyone to gain by suing it.

SixPotBelly wrote:

jameso wrote:
Sue the TNR if you like, a copy of the 2017 accounts is below

Incoming - £0
Outgoing - £385
---------------------
Balance - £385
Net worth - F*** all

That put a thought into my head. If an event were organised by a company with limited liability, say Torino-Nice Rally Ltd, then that would be the entity liable if something went wrong, would it not? There'd be no further liability on the director/owner of that company, since that's what limited liability means, so beyond the assets owned by the company (effectively none) there'd be nothing for anyone to gain by suing it.

If said company had appropriately wording articles of association, then maybe. Moreso if it was an organisation people (i.e. participants) could join. But there would be a named 'route planner' and 'event organiser' and (as happens in fell running) 'they' may look at what is considered best practice/national guidelines for similar events, or published by the relevant national body. At which point BC would say "they did WHAT!" or similar...

As above in the thread our fell running club went down that road, but are insured through FRA/UKA as national bodies.

If it does ever hit the fan, I'm sure the likes of BC, CTC (or whatever they're now called) would probably not want bikepackers standing under their umbrella ... certainly not without us changing our mucky, depraved ways. At that point, some type of national bikepacking body would need to be formed ... or, we can all say bollox and fall off the radar - again. Although that may prove quite difficult.

That put a thought into my head. If an event were organised by a company with limited liability, say Torino-Nice Rally Ltd, then that would be the entity liable if something went wrong, would it not? There'd be no further liability on the director/owner of that company, since that's what limited liability means, so beyond the assets owned by the company (effectively none) there'd be nothing for anyone to gain by suing it.

Correct, so they'd sue me instead. Anyone involved with the event could get sued to see where the liability ends up - clubs, affiliated groups etc, and an easy defense may be ''do one, we just added a logo to the site in return for giving away a bike" but in my case the emails I send may be fair evidence that I'm related to it : )

There's a duty of care in anything like this, what I'm not clear on is what that duty consists of in it's entirety but it seems common sense and a little thought covers most of it. Do I send people along a knife-edge ridge carrying a bike? No. Does the event put pressure on anyone to ride outside of thier normal comfort zone? Nope. Can you drive a car along the route to demonstrate that it's not technically demanding for cycling? Yes, more so if Italian and driving a Fiat Panda. Do we tell people clearly that it gets cold at 2000m and the weather might be bad? Duh .. yes.
Do we ride down anything called 'the death road'? Er .. let me call you back, something's come up.

If said company had appropriately wording articles of association, then maybe. Moreso if it was an organisation people (i.e. participants) could join. But there would be a named 'route planner' and 'event organiser' and (as happens in fell running) 'they' may look at what is considered best practice/national guidelines for similar events, or published by the relevant national body. At which point BC would say "they did WHAT!" or similar...

True. A club affiliated to CUK (ex CTC) would cover it if it applied with the above but mainly for UK (or UK-originating eg London-Paris) events. It may still be an option if they cover Italy and France. Even more so if part of the club regs are max 200 members per year for ex, gives a method of limiting numbers. Estimating drop-out rate is tricky tho and I don't want to charge a joining fee to test a rider's intent - though it could raise some useful funds it'll also add expectations.

I'm sure the likes of BC, CTC (or whatever they're now called) would probably not want bikepackers standing under their umbrella ... certainly not without us changing our mucky, depraved ways.

Nah, it's all touring innit? ; )

Correct, so they'd sue me instead.

Also, being a director of a limited liability company means you can't be personally responsible for the debts but this is about negligence - I expect you're still liable there since a company itself can't be negligent.

After 2 years, I'll be doing a 200km Audax in that area for 1/6 of the price!

Gosh, you'd think that one was off road on private land and included parking, goody bag, T shirt, gear expo, timing, signage, mechanic assistance, medical cover, radio comms, £10Mill PL cover, 3 feed stations and a finishers meal and beer.............

jameso wrote:

Correct, so they'd sue me instead.

Also, being a director of a limited liability company means you can't be personally responsible for the debts but this is about negligence - I expect you're still liable there since a company itself can't be negligent.

I see it as two different things. If there's a criminal offence commited then, yes, an individual could perhaps be prosecuted in the criminal courts but the organising company would be the entity liable to be sued in county (civil) courts in a compensation claim. The company would be forced to fold if the court upheld the complaint and it couldn't pay the amount awarded, but that liability would not transfer to the director(s) or shareholder(s).

ianfitz wrote:As above in the thread our fell running club went down that road....

Sorry, have looked but must be missing the post you refer to. For clarification, I agree that the liability would transfer to the individual were it a club (or sole trader) but believe that it would not in the case of a limited company.

If so that's interesting - I've no experience here, was only told that a lawyer acting for someone insured could sue a few people to see where liability (or insurance funds) lay - a club, the route-setter, the affiliating club, etc. If an event could be done via a ltd company then you may be onto something - any more expertise in this area, PM maybe?

Sorry, no legal expertise - just playing the barrack room lawyer - but the idea comes from having had two limited companies, and having looked a little into what that meant. If I were in your position it'd be something I would look into anyway. If I'm right, the only downside would be the (slight) accounting burden that comes with having a limited company - having to file annual accounts, an annual return and an additional section on your personal tax return.

jameso wrote:If so that's interesting - I've no experience here, was only told that a lawyer acting for someone insured could sue a few people to see where liability (or insurance funds) lay - a club, the route-setter, the affiliating club, etc. If an event could be done via a ltd company then you may be onto something - any more expertise in this area, PM maybe?

In our case we are a club that uses ltd company as a vehicle to manage these issues. I’m no lawyer but understand that it works (although untested!) for us as all participants are members too.

so this came up on my Facebook feed this morning

https://www.letsride.co.uk

https://www.letsride.co.uk/terms

Wondering if this might just be a framework that allows people to organise free 'events'? You'd think British Cycling would have had the legal team all over this...