I'd delay for about 24 hours and leave in the evening after the start. Pick up the backmarkers and ride with them for a bit. I reckon they'll be more interesting than the front runners and you never know, you might be of a bit more help than possible hinderance.

I do think that seems like a sensible idea with sound reasoning.

Hi
I'm planning to attempt the HT 550 maybe on the 21st May or the 14th June, will confirm Soon.

Oddly, I thought the whole concept of an Individual Time Trial was in the first word.

Individual.

Not group.

Bearbonesnorm wrote:

I'd delay for about 24 hours and leave in the evening after the start. Pick up the backmarkers and ride with them for a bit. I reckon they'll be more interesting than the front runners and you never know, you might be of a bit more help than possible hinderance.

I do think that seems like a sensible idea with sound reasoning.

Even catching up to the pack is a pisstake though - if you're at the back of the mass start you're possibly struggling for pace etc, so if there's one bed left in town you don't want to have it taken by someone who didn't get into the mass start but who came along anyway. It's a wider ethical question, but if you're knowingly riding it as an ITT it really shouldn't be at the same time as the main start.

If you are being truly fair to other riders, I'd be looking at delaying your start until you know you can't catch anyone. For example, if your pace is six days and the back markers are going for eight, then wait three days.

AlasdairMc wrote: Even catching up to the pack is a pisstake though - if you're at the back of the mass start you're possibly struggling for pace etc, so if there's one bed left in town you don't want to have it taken by someone who didn't get into the mass start but who came along anyway. It's a wider ethical question, but if you're knowingly riding it as an ITT it really shouldn't be at the same time as the main start.

Playing devils advocate here, any random walker could take the "last bed in town" from a rider.
Should all outdoor pursuitist's bugger off from the exclusion zone for a week? Are coach loads of grannies banned from tea shops during racing season.

My own opinion is the OP should wait a day or so but they are free to ride trails for anybody to ride a bike/walk/ride a horse on.
It's not an exclusive course.

AlasdairMc wrote: Even catching up to the pack is a pisstake though - if you're at the back of the mass start you're possibly struggling for pace etc, so if there's one bed left in town you don't want to have it taken by someone who didn't get into the mass start but who came along anyway. It's a wider ethical question, but if you're knowingly riding it as an ITT it really shouldn't be at the same time as the main start.

I dont think it's very respectful to the race to be riding an "ITT" in amongst the group start riders. Although, if it's fine with Alan, I wouldn't have any problems with that. More company out there is a good thing in my view.

But if you're in the group start with a strategy reliant on finding somewhere to stay and not getting a bed wrecks your race, you probably shouldn't be riding either.

More company out there is a good thing in my view.

You didn't wait for me on the return over Devil's Staircase in the dark last year........
You could have shared your nice bright light.........

boxelder wrote: You didn't wait for me on the return over Devil's Staircase in the dark last year........

Sorry about that.
I had loads of company that day - trees, rocks, fenceposts and all sorts were speaking to me :p

touch wrote: But if you're in the group start with a strategy reliant on finding somewhere to stay and not getting a bed wrecks your race, you probably shouldn't be riding either.

True - I was really meaning that if you're right at the back struggling then it might be touch and go as to whether a warm bed for the night will allow you to regroup, recover and continue in the race, and for that to be taken away by someone bending the rules then I'd be mightily annoyed.

............it might be touch and go as to whether a warm bed for the night will allow you to regroup, recover and continue in the race, and for that to be taken away by someone bending the rules then I'd be mightily annoyed.

You mean people are traveling by credit card and not camping? I thought that was the purpose or rather the spirit of the thing.
Oh well another allusion shattered.

Mariner wrote:............it might be touch and go as to whether a warm bed for the night will allow you to regroup, recover and continue in the race, and for that to be taken away by someone bending the rules then I'd be mightily annoyed.

You mean people are traveling by credit card and not camping? I thought that was the purpose or rather the spirit of the thing.
Oh well another allusion shattered.

Haha. There's no ban on staying at a hotel but compared to a three hour bivy you ain't likely to be competitive

I made some PDFs of the route today. 50k mapping printed at 100k - 20 sides!!!

Happy to share, but via download link as the file is 130meg.

Pm me an email address...

Haha. There's no ban on staying at a hotel but compared to a three hour bivy you ain't likely to be competitive

But there is a ban on resources that are not available to everyone.
So excluding ITTs a group of riders arrive at Dunridinfortheday Village some get B&B some dont.
Technically should those with accommodation a. share with the others or b. be disqualified?
Same applies to last pizza/bowl of pasta/deep fried Mars bar etc.

But there is a ban on resources that are not available to everyone

You've misunderstood the "ban".

Mariner wrote: Same applies to last pizza/bowl of pasta/deep fried Mars bar etc.

Scotland will never run out of deep fried mars bars

Mariner wrote:Haha. There's no ban on staying at a hotel but compared to a three hour bivy you ain't likely to be competitive

But there is a ban on resources that are not available to everyone.
So excluding ITTs a group of riders arrive at Dunridinfortheday Village some get B&B some dont.
Technically should those with accommodation a. share with the others or b. be disqualified?
Same applies to last pizza/bowl of pasta/deep fried Mars bar etc.

Or the last large pizza. Waves at Greg and ian

It's all getting too complicated for me this...

My understanding of the "rules are that you take things as you find them.

So if you turn up to a hotel/B&B and there's a room available then it's there if you want it. If everything's booked up then tough. The rule: "Only use commercial services that are available to all challengers - no private resupply, no private lodging".

Sharing looks a slightly grey area since this is the usual rule about sharing: "Be completely self-supported throughout the ride - absolutely no support crews, absolutely no gear sharing". So is sharing a hotel room or a pizza "gear sharing"? If a competitor turned up and was in a bad state and was unlikely to continue, would I share? More than likely. But then what if having that room or pizza meant that they were able to recover and carry on? Who's broken the rule if indeed it has been broken? I'd report what had happened and if it meant my time was annulled then so be it but that's a personal call.

voodoo_simon wrote:

Mariner wrote: Same applies to last pizza/bowl of pasta/deep fried Mars bar etc.

Scotland will never run out of deep fried mars bars

12" pizzas, however, are a different story - eh Greg?

whitestone wrote:My understanding of the "rules are that you take things as you find them.

So if you turn up to a hotel/B&B and there's a room available then it's there if you want it. If everything's booked up then tough. The rule: "Only use commercial services that are available to all challengers - no private resupply, no private lodging".

Sharing looks a slightly grey area since this is the usual rule about sharing: "Be completely self-supported throughout the ride - absolutely no support crews, absolutely no gear sharing". So is sharing a hotel room or a pizza "gear sharing"? If a competitor turned up and was in a bad state and was unlikely to continue, would I share? More than likely. But then what if having that room or pizza meant that they were able to recover and carry on? Who's broken the rule if indeed it has been broken? I'd report what had happened and if it meant my time was annulled then so be it but that's a personal call.

For me if you offered to share your room that would be ok, but if they asked maybe not. Or if both arrived at the same time and agreed to share - fine too.

If some one offers a small snack or a slice of pizza that feel ok to me, but if you are asking or blagging food/shelter/assistance from people then is not ok. What if you are fixing your bike by the roadside and someone stops and offers help/tools/track pump, it would be odd to refuse that in any other situation so I would likely accept. But I wouldn't be flagging down passing cars asking if they had tools.

I think as the popularity of the route spreads that sort of trail magic will happen more often and lead to more grey areas. Ultimately though, you know if you've done wrong, and as you say if unsure just speak up. I'd think that if things were done with good intentions and not to seek advantage then they are good fortune rather than cheating.

While we are in the ‘moral dilemma’ area here is one I think about when out riding – other than why oh why oh why would you bother bagging dog poo and then not take it home? As you can see I really get down to some really deep stuff.

You come across a bike crash in the middle of nowhere. Rider out cold or seriously injured – blood bone that sort of thing. Being totally none medically qualified but aware that movement could cause further injury what do you do?
If the rider has a SPOT I would trigger SOS and hang about.
If the rider does not have a SPOT and you do trigger your SOS or not?
Hang about or ride on to get help? You would have to leave your SPOT if you have triggered SOS and leave.
Obviously common humanity would dictate helping but actually got no idea what help or even how.
Sad situation but might encourage anyone riding in front of me to take care if I am your best bet of survival.

In 2013, Aidan Harding and Phil Simmcock began a descent together on a section before Fisherfield. Fading light, a bit technical, etc, Aidan got to the bottom first and there was no sign of Phil. He was in the lead at that point. He waited. And waited. He was about to turn back up the descent to check Phil was OK, but Phil came into view with a damaged rear mech. As soon as it was apparent Phil was ok, he carried on and went on to win finish first. The fact he was leading didn't matter.

The point here, is we're all out in some of the most remote terrain in the UK. We have a duty to look out for ourselves (i.e. be self sufficient) but also to look out for each other for those occasions where you might not get up from a crash or extract yourself to a point of safety without help.

I'm very wary of the apparent safety net the SPOT provides. It doesn't make things out there any less of a risk. If you get to the point where you have to press the SOS button, you've failed in moderating that risk - either through poor kit choices or over extension of bike/mountain/survival ability.

+1
There is a sense when you read the rules that should you come across a fellow rider injured, you reach down to press their Spot SOS button then ride off
In reality you behave as if you are just out riding your bike as normal (which in fact you are as its not a race remember!) and provide assistance to someone in trouble as you would hope someone would do for you, even though you prepare for no-one being able to help you.

Re the ITT start discussion, you can start whenever you want as its a free country etc. etc.

Hang about or ride on to get help? You would have to leave your SPOT if you have triggered SOS and leave.

The general rule is that if you've called for help you don't leave. This operates on the basic principle that if you were to injure yourself after calling for help then nobody would know where you are.

Even without any medical knowledge, there's still plenty of things you can be doing such as stopping bleeding by the simple act of applying pressure or making your location obvious to a mountain rescue team. If the person regains conciousness, your presence there will make a huge difference to their chances of survival.

Of course the reality is a little more nuanced than that. Even in the middle of nowhere there may be things worth moving away for. Are you within a few minutes of a house, road or popular hiking trail? Is there a point of elevation that may afford you phone reception? These are things that may be worth leaving the injured party for, albeit only briefly. The more information that can be relayed to rescue services, the better they can plan and coordinate their efforts for a quick and effective evacuation. However, if for any reason you do decide to leave, make sure it is clear that there is a second party out there that rescue services need to be aware of. Either leave your bike and go on foot or leave bike luggage. Generally though, don't leave and don't take any risks until help has arrived.

Also, find some time to go on a basic first aid course. Even the stuff you learn in a one day course can make a big difference in the event of an injury either to someone else or to yourself. The more people who know this stuff the better.

Ian wrote: 12" pizzas, however, are a different story - eh Greg?

Too soon Ian, too soon. I still bear ill will against you three years on

On the plus side, at least we got food not like Steve and a few others who turned up at 10:05pm!

Ian wrote:... I'm very wary of the apparent safety net the SPOT provides. It doesn't make things out there any less of a risk. If you get to the point where you have to press the SOS button, you've failed in moderating that risk - either through poor kit choices or over extension of bike/mountain/survival ability.

Got to disagree. To paraphrase, you are say that anyone who has the right kit and skills will never need emergency medical support and will never have an accident that results in a serious medical situation. It could be something breaks on your bike, or some hidden obstacle that causes you to fall off and break a bone. You could suffer a heart attack even. I broke my arm at low speed when my front wheel went down a whole covered in grass, that was impossible to see, and I fell off. It was local and I was able to ride home along a path. Might have been different in remote country. My colleague last week was sea kayaking in Scotland. He took a photo on a beach, walked backwards to frame the shot and tripped over the only rock on the beach. He put out his arm to break his fall, it twisted on contact and he fractured his elbow! There any number of situations that are truly 'accidents', that are nothing to do with kit choice and skill level, where a SPOT would get you the medical assistance you need and could even save your life.