jameso wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 8:29 am

a cable that needs feeding through a frame

Internal cable routing? Not for this committed retrogrouch!

Surely James, you're gonna use internal cables at some point in life. I found them lovely because of bikepacking straps not needing to dodge the cables anymore.

jameso wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 8:29 am

a cable that needs feeding through a frame

Internal cable routing? Not for this committed retrogrouch!

I don't even use internal fork hose routing on the gravel bike, so I can service the headset without disconnecting the brake hose. Yes it looks a bit ugly with a bolt on cable guide in an eyelet and a zip tie, and it's not aero. But I can service the bearings myself in 15mins.

All my bikes are still otherwise external routing except droppers. Aside from practicality, I like the utilitarian look of external cables.

Anyone want to talk about inside downtube storage..?

redefined_cycles wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 9:16 am Surely James, you're gonna use internal cables at some point in life. I found them lovely because of bikepacking straps not needing to dodge the cables anymore.

Not if I have the choice.. again, pointless imho but really, there's more important things I'd give my concern to : )
But a wireless and cable guide-less frame certainly has some appeal, if I got over my electrophobia.

Anyone want to talk about inside downtube storage..?

Sure having that open area to carry your snack bar and tools more neatly you have a heavier and/or less structurally sound frame
(same applies to internal cable routing)

jameso wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 9:27 am

redefined_cycles wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 9:16 am Surely James, you're gonna use internal cables at some point in life. I found them lovely because of bikepacking straps not needing to dodge the cables anymore.

Not if I have the choice.. again, pointless imho but really, there's more important things I'd give my concern to : )
But a wireless and cable guide-less frame certainly has some appeal, if I got over my electrophobia.

Fair enough. You're a hard-core retro geek James. How ling I wonder did it take you to get over the v brakes thing (on mtb) when coming over to discs. Took me about 5 years on the road bike, but on the mtb it was a no-brainer right from the start. I used to love retro tech but then something in the brain clicked (good or bad, is debatable). I think it was after after getting hard-core brake fade coming down Wrynose Pass.

Well done for staying retro-stubborn and I know better than to debate bike strength with a bike designer

Shaf, from my point of view it's got nothing to do with retro, especially retro for retro sake. I'm OK with new tech and material improvements, in life or on my bikes. It's 100% about stepping back and being objectively critical on technology we are expected to adopt without much thought. On bikes, i've happily adopted thru axles, tubeless, etc. because their benefits outweighed the cons and I adopted them on my timescales. The things i'm grouchy about are ones i've thought about and decided aren't necessary to me, or have disadvantages greater than the benefits, and those reasons hold some useful truths for others (internal routing, electrics, etcetera). It is totally subjective of course! But there's a key difference between that, and blindly being against new technology simply because it's new.

faustus wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 10:24 am Shaf, from my point of view it's got nothing to do with retro, especially retro for retro sake. I'm OK with new tech and material improvements, in life or on my bikes. It's 100% about stepping back and being objectively critical on technology we are expected to adopt without much thought. On bikes, i've happily adopted thru axles, tubeless, etc. because their benefits outweighed the cons and I adopted them on my timescales. The things i'm grouchy about are ones i've thought about and decided aren't necessary to me, or have disadvantages greater than the benefits, and those reasons hold some useful truths for others (internal routing, electrics, etcetera). It is totally subjective of course! But there's a key difference between that, and blindly being against new technology simply because it's new.

Very true and good point. It's like this brake lever/shifter combo issue I have going on at the moment. The adaptor is almost as much price as what I paid for the shifter. Partly why I gave up on trying to build/repair bikes.

I think I have figured it out but I've just come full circle. Very good points and that 'internal frame storage'. Who the heck thought of that! If I wasn't already half balled I'd have maybe pulled my hair out!

Yeah, shimano created a compatibility nightmare with their many versions of i-spec. I had an ispec shifter break, and happily reverted back to a rather elegant bar clamp, just because I had it, and it doesn't take up much room on the bar!
You might want to just make life easier and get a new or 2nd hand band-on clamp m7000 shifter for £20, and sell the other one. Then you don't have to worry about compatibility if you use it on another bike or need to swap brake levers for another type?

Think this might solve it?:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares ... y06m98050/

How ling I wonder did it take you to get over the v brakes thing (on mtb) when coming over to discs.

No time at all : ) that was a change that made sense. Still got a couple of nice rim braked road bike here, though that's more about the older style steel forks and frame than the brake choice.

I quite like the look of it all after reading all the blurb. Might wait till it trickles down to XT or below though, as it's a bit spendy...

It's leaving me a bit confused to be honest.

Shimano have sold themselves very short on the range - 35 shifts per km???? seems rather excessive for anything other than short course XC racing - I'd be surprised if I do much more than that in an hour...

However, I do fancy a go with wireless drivetrain - just not much of a SRAM fan on the mtb - I quite like the 1x11 apex on my commuter bike though.

Having said that, I'm firmly in the retrogrouch/functionality camp alongside James. External, mostly full length outer, cables work very nicely so far for me. I was an early adopter of disk brakes, had some old formula 4 bolt ones on my Sunn Radical and a hope mechanical on the front of a rigid cindercone (with a ritchey logic canti on the rear) in the 90s, so it's very much a function thing.

And the cash! Just a new rear mech & shifter is almost as much as I paid for my whole bike.... and it'll never be as pretty as the best ever XTR:


Possibly slightly biased, as that groupset was the only time I've ever had an XTR one, but it was lovely...

jameso wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 12:51 pm

How ling I wonder did it take you to get over the v brakes thing (on mtb) when coming over to discs.

No time at all : ) that was a change that made sense.

redefined_cycles wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 10:44 am If I wasn't already half balled...

Ouch! Sounds unfortunate. Is the other one in the Albert Hall?

Perhaps a bespoke saddle would help

MuddyPete wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 6:01 pm

redefined_cycles wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 10:44 am If I wasn't already half balled...

Ouch! Sounds unfortunate. Is the other one in the Albert Hall?

Perhaps a bespoke saddle would help

Lol. 'Bald', even. Might ammend.

PaulE wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 1:36 pm
Possibly slightly biased, as that groupset was the only time I've ever had an XTR one, but it was lovely...

I got one of them second hand and used it for several years before 10 speed became unavoidable... Might even still have it somewhere!

Me too. Not sure if I had that full groupset but it was a lovely experience. The current XTR I'm running as my rear mech has a bit of carbon missing now. Bought it about 4000 miles ago from an ebayer who said his bike shop had told him it was damaged.

Had some slight mechanical slack that would be normal in an XT and less (play) than a new Deore. M9000 issue I think, lovely mech that just keeps giving. Sorry, going slightly off topic.

Let's stay grouchy

fatbikephil wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 8:20 pm

PaulE wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 1:36 pm
Possibly slightly biased, as that groupset was the only time I've ever had an XTR one, but it was lovely...

I got one of them second hand and used it for several years before 10 speed became unavoidable... Might even still have it somewhere!

If you find the rear mech, they work perfectly for using with 10 speed road shifters and an 11-36 cassette for a cheap but lovely gravel groupset

If you find the rear mech, they work perfectly for using with 10 speed road shifters and an 11-36 cassette for a cheap but lovely gravel groupset

I can vouch for that, my audaxy road bike uses that set up - a short cage M950 XTR rear mech, 11-32 10s cassette, 105 10s STIs. Rim brakes and square taper cranks, of course : )

Last year I built up a very nice road bike and went all out on the components - full Dura-Ace Di2 12 speed with hydraulic discs. I can say it's fantastic and so much nicer than cables and rim brakes.

However a mtb is a different beast - it'll have rocks bouncing off it, will get rattled to death over rough stuff, probably crashed, and if it let's you down you might be a long walk from help. So simplicity and ease of trailside fixing is required - which in my head still means cable gears.
But then I still have 10 speed on 3 bikes, 11 on one and a spare 9 speed setup for the singlespeed. Plus a host of useless spare mechs, shifters and general poor show that will probably outlast me.

No to internal routing. I dont bother using it myself.
Just means you cannot take your brakes or mech of ( or forks on road bikes ) and aesthetically I can only see the bars and the front wheel. I dont see what problem it is trying to fix tbh.

I have sram 1 x12 road shifter with mtb mech. Its good and works fine but its not a game changer ( like disc brakes are ).
I would not seek out electric shifting nor would i avoid it ( except on a bikepacking multi day bike )

Lazarus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 07, 2025 8:09 am No to internal routing... I dont see what problem it is trying to fix

From an article about the Moots workshop in 2018, this was on the wall.

Still not seeing what problem that fixes

godivatrailrider wrote: ↑Fri Jun 06, 2025 7:41 am

fatbikephil wrote: ↑Thu Jun 05, 2025 6:23 pm
When the gears are solar powered I may be in

Don't you live in Scotland? Solar, that's brave !

Wind power is the answer for up Nth

The new Q'AUTO (horrible name) system sounds interesting in a 'what can possibly go wrong?' way. Rear dynamo hub that just powers the rear derailleur so no separate battery required with built in automatic gear changing that you can turn off.