In marketing parlance, many of the flat-barred gravel bikes are referred to as Fitness Bikes. This differentiates them from the shopper types.

Slap a different set of road plus tyres (e.g. Byways or Ventures) on a Kona Dew Plus and you get a cheap and cheerful gravel bike

Jurassic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:03 pm[...]You can ride terrain like that faster without giving it a thought on a modern, slack, wide barred mountain bike with big volume tyres[...]

I completely agree.
I can ride a smooth and flat double track on the penny farthing at 20 km/h and am absolutely trilled.

Yet, still, once I come off a single track on my trail bike and get onto some sort of double track I simply go faster (when I feel like it). Like really, really stupidly fast. Really very stupid.

It's like that with every bike. To more capable the bike in certain terrain, the more room you have to play with your own limits. The less capable the bike, the more the bike limits the way you can ride.

I see the gravel vs. xc mtb more focused towards the drop-/flatbar. Geo, aero, ergo, more specific treads for very fast rolling as mostly off road double tracks and little/no single tracks and then think, what exactly should the marketed difference between

monster crosser and gravel bikes - am I missing a major difference? Are monster crossers MTB frames with dropbars?

Is a gravel bike simply not a hybrid with drops? Would many people not actually be better suited to a flat barred gravel bike which may or may not then look very much like an late 80's or early 90's mountainbike? Are we all simply trying to live the marketing dream?

Hybrids tend to be aimed at a much lower price point than gravel bikes with commensurately lower levels of equipment. The higher priced once aren't called hybrids, .e.g the flat barred salsa journeyman.

In the interests of not conforming I shall henceforth refer to my gravel bike as my drop bar hybrid (DBH)!

My Amazon is my #gradventourer

Covers all the necessary niches.

The less capable the bike, the more the bike limits the way you can ride.

Nah - the less capable the bike, the more skill is required to ride it well.

ScotRoutes wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:39 pm My Amazon is my #gradventourer

Covers all the necessary niches.

Hmm, maybe I'll call it Hygradventourer or Gradventourbrid then.

Superb - we're at the cutting edge of marketing after just a single morning on the job

ScotRoutes wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:39 pm #gradventourer

I like this.

Huh, I looked away for 5 minutes and you lot have invented a new niche. Genius

Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:09 am Is a gravel bike simply not a hybrid with drops? Would many people not actually be better suited to a flat barred gravel bike which may or may not then look very much like an late 80's or early 90's mountainbike? Are we all simply trying to live the marketing dream?

Hell yeah - I'm 48, balding and my body is starting to show signs of wear and tear so I'll happily live the marketing dream
In fact I bought my Straggler frame as an impulse buy on Black Friday a couple of years back so I'm doubly living the marketing dream

26er hardtail anybody?

Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:09 am Is a gravel bike simply not a hybrid with drops? Would many people not actually be better suited to a flat barred gravel bike which may or may not then look very much like an late 80's or early 90's mountainbike?

Really like the idea of calling any bike that are not dedicated to road or downhill a hybrid. I’ll be riding the tour divide/Torino Nice Rally/insert multi surface event on my hybrid.

Riding hand me down 90s mountain bikes (older than me) is what got me from a to b cycling into this obsession I am on now and I still love riding them. Not just the romanticism, they are a good level of hybrid for what I ride

Nah. I have no problems with naming niches. At least we no longer have folk having to buy a "cyclo cross bike" for commuting when they just wanted a comfy road bike.

ScotRoutes wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:15 pm Nah. I have no problems with naming niches. At least we no longer have folk having to buy a "cyclo cross bike" for commuting when they just wanted a comfy road bike.

I still ride a cyclo cross bike, none of this rack and mudguard mount nonsense they have nowdays

ScotRoutes wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:39 pm My Amazon is my #gradventourer

Covers all the necessary niches.

The less capable the bike, the more the bike limits the way you can ride.

Nah - the less capable the bike, the more skill is required to ride it well.

You're probably right in general. But I can't agree when I comes to myself or any other rider above a certain skill level and some time spent on a certain type of bike to get the hang of it.

And basically your statement goes by different measures to my statement you cited.
What comes to my mind regarding your statement is that riding a eg. a very capable trail bike well - as in using it's possibilities well - is more difficult than doing the same on a not so trail capable bike.

Even just the early summers experiment from good all round mtb tyres to xc race oriented ones on my short travel bike initially felt challenging. I made a few mistakes, mostly riding turns as usual, which led to front and rear wheel drifting, eventually some wash outs and a few crashes. Adapting to the weaker tyres didn't challenge my skills, I just had to back it down in turns. I'm quite sure I've learned nothing new, but simply have to hold the bike back a bit.
So the limitation is coming from the tool whilst I'm riding the bike just as well/crap.

For you folks a gravel bike may sound natural.
Imagine this anglicism in rural Switzerland. It's quite often comical and swiss aren't that funny usually.

Alpinum wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:48 am monster crosser and gravel bikes - am I missing a major difference? Are monster crossers MTB frames with dropbars?

Any suggestions? There must be an answer given the marketing prowess on here.

Any suggestions?

I think you could be onto something with the converted mountainbike thing Gian - once we had road bikes, mountain bikes and cross bikes but the cx bikes had limitations when removed from their intended enviroment, thus the monstercross bike was born. Well, it was either that or it was just attention seeking, one or the other

ScotRoutes wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:15 pm Nah. I have no problems with naming niches. At least we no longer have folk having to buy a "cyclo cross bike" for commuting when they just wanted a comfy road bike.

I can vouch for that, really very pleased to be off the cross bike and onto the gravel bike.

No idea how close the geometry is with a gravel and hybrid, doesn’t look that close with those I see at work.

Bearbonesnorm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:38 pm

Any suggestions?

I think you could be onto something with the converted mountainbike thing Gian - once we had road bikes, mountain bikes and cross bikes but the cx bikes had limitations when removed from their intended enviroment, thus the monstercross bike was born. Well, it was either that or it was just attention seeking, one or the other

The problem with converting a MTB is the top tube length, hence the Fargo and the like.
What salsa did wasn’t rocket science, they just made it easier to get the bike fitting well.

As an interesting point what would be the major differences in my Fargo with a ‘gravel’ bike wheelset and a typical gravel bike be? Possibly much the same as any other hard tail mtb?

In my youth I had a wheelset shod with 2” slicks and would go hunting roadies The method of assault would be a timed attack with a deftly executed turn off up a side road once the damage was done. Even with the slicks I just couldn’t hold the speed for long enough, for me a gravel bike would be fast enough in the road and still be able to handle some off-road.

BigdummySteve wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:02 pm
In my youth I had a wheelset shod with 2” slicks and would go hunting roadies The method of assault would be a timed attack with a deftly executed turn off up a side road once the damage was done. Even with the slicks I just couldn’t hold the speed for long enough, for me a gravel bike would be fast enough in the road and still be able to handle some off-road.

Heck.
That’s got me remembering my original Clockwork wearing a pair of Specialized Fatboys and my rides to uni and back.
Happy days

BigdummySteve wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:02 pm The problem with converting a MTB is the top tube length

Yeah, definately. But going a size smaller than usual should /could fit(?)

What's the difference roughly of hand-position on the hoods vs. Flatbar? 70 mm?
If one goes with a frame a size smaller, has enough seat tube and post length and is stretched a bit when riding on the hoods, it'll result in a more aero position and the long seat post will give more compliance to ride little bumps seated. The only risk I see is the pressure on the wrists on long rides when streched too much...

Such an mtb turned monster crosser will take wider tyres (73 mm BB) and will have a lower BB when run with narrow and slick gravel tyres. Sounds like a better choice with more options to me than a gravel bike. At least for those coming from a more off road biking background than road riding.

The problem with converting a MTB is the top tube length,

Ah yes but monstercross conversions were generally carried out to frames sporting older geometry with much shorter TT than more modern mountainbikes.

Alpinum wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:09 am

BigdummySteve wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:02 pm The problem with converting a MTB is the top tube length

Such an mtb turned monster crosser will take wider tyres (73 mm BB) and will have a lower BB when run with narrow and slick gravel tyres. Sounds like a better choice with more options to me than a gravel bike. At least for those coming from a more off road biking background than road riding.

Still sounds like my Fargo while I’m in the smug zone, I do realise a gravel bike would be faster in the road, but I would be interesting to compare. I think you need to look at the Tour divide, how many riders took a gravel bike. As I said before I’d break one, I’d be pootling along a forest track and forget. For most of us I think a drop bar MTB would be more appropriate than a gravel bike.

BigdummySteve wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:25 pm I do realise a gravel bike would be faster in the road, but I would be interesting to compare.

I'd like to challenge that.
What makes a bike fast?

Aerodynamics
Rolling resistance
Ergonomics
...

Aero
Put the yourself on your Fargo in the same position like some gravel bike you may have ridden lately that felt faster. The lower the better unless it restricts you output I guess...
Just stay within an ergonomically correct position.

Wear lycra. Get a fast helmet. No rucksack. Give the bike less drag with styrofoam and tape. Give the round tubes a drop shape. Don't laugh, I've ridden DH races

Those can be done on a gravel bike too, but anyways, they'll make you faster.

Rolling resistance
Simply put the same tyres on the Fargo like those on the fast gravel bike. Fast compount, tons of air pressure for tarmac, fast tread. I don't think tyre width makes a big difference when you ride at 3 or 4 bars on road. Does it? For gravel less is more. 2 or so bars will give compliance and keep the wheels from bouncing thus reducing resistance.

Ergo
Besides the stuff stated above, Bb width..?Fargo has a 73 mm bb I guess. Gravel bikes are probably mostly road bike bb width. Some say a narrower bb is more efficient. Well, if it is (I can imagine there to be a minor difference), it's surely insignificant in real world riding. Too small of a not real difference to be concerned I bet. The 5 mm bb width can also be adressed with narrow q-factor cranks and cleat placement.

Of course, once your Fargo has turned into a pseudo gravel bike it will show similar performance on what ever tracks and loose some capabilities on single tracks, but you (likely) only need to change tyres.

So... what exactly can a gravel bike do what a short reach/tt mtb can't?

That said, yesterday I received a Funn G-Wide drop bar for a battered mtb frame I reanimated...