Proposed Wind Farm near Glaslyn

[RIP]

I've got a panda somewhere and she's not very busy at the moment, if that helps at all.

[Lazarus]

not all proposed locations are ideal

true but they have to go somewhere and every area will have objectors. They tried to frack locally to me* I get both sides of the argument but reneqbles are a bit more essential than more fossil fuels ( but I was an objector)

* they did till they had earthquakes and the secretary of state over ruled local planners

[Bearbonesnorm]

true but they have to go somewhere

I do sometimes wonder how long it'll be until there's nothing left worth saving.

[faustus]

Like many i'm in two minds, as I love Wales and it's emptier places. I also know it always ends up being a net resource contributor to other areas, if not the rest of the country in some capacity. Hence Wales' vast history of mining, forestry, water, wind, etc. I'm not saying that justifies it's continuation in that role, at all.

I do have an issue with how notions of collective responsibility are being expressed in these kinds of debates, and I mean more generally than this specific proposal too. However sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek the use of 'townie' is, any kind of othering in this situation/debate hides the fact we are all to 'blame' and all responsible. It's easy to blame other people wasting electricity on frivolities, but we all do it, and judging how others may or may not waste the resource, does bugger all for figuring out how to keep the power on in future. We are all responsible for energy demand in some capacity. It's also easy to just say the human race is going to/deserves to die out soon, so to hell with it - it's s statement of fact, but the immediate problem remains. It's washing your hands of a problem in a not too dissimilar way to claiming there is no problem. Inaction and acceptance of the status quo is the result. From a pragmatic viewpoint, some fairly drastic things need to happen to make essential changes. If we don't build alternative power generation, climate deterioration will come to us all in a more impacting way than it has to date. It'll also come to the places we love and change them too. What is the balance of saying 'no thanks' or 'not here'? I'm by no means saying don't oppose it, but question why and think of alternatives and compromises.

Also, it's worth noting levers are being pulled in terms of managing both demand and supply, how about this graph showing some of the effects of white goods energy labelling, energy efficiency retrofits etc, and general changes in behaviour - it's not all doom: https://www.statista.com/statistics/550 ... nal-users/ Per Capita consumption downward trend despite population increase (domestic usage downward trend also, so not all driven by loss of industry!). Lots of people doing small actions can, and does make big differences, even if they are mandated. Lots of us doing nowt might increase the severity of future mandates? I've sounded more ranty than intended, but hey-ho!

[RIP]

A while ago it was in the news that the Welsh Govt were planning to abandon the village of Fairbourne (near Barmouth) due to rising sea levels. Obviously my discussion point here depends on one believing in M(+W)MCC caused by CO2/methane/etc emissions and then that M(+W)MCC causes rising sea levels. But if that's taken as read, one could argue that 'sacrificing' a view in Wales goes some way towards the trade-offs for physically saving whole villages. Obviously if one doesn't believe in M(+W)MCC then ignore my point .

I'm a paid-up member of the Use Less Power brigade.

PS. I heard that a giant solar array was being planned for the Mawddach estuary .

[Dave Barter]

There was discussion on Countryfile about wind farms - turns out that so far "they" haven't figured out how to recycle the blades which are typically fibreglass or carbon fibre.

Use car tyres to make massive lackey bands then the propellers can make airplanes. Job done

[RIP]

There was discussion on Countryfile about wind farms - turns out that so far "they" haven't figured out how to recycle the blades which are typically fibreglass or carbon fibre.

Use car tyres to make massive lackey bands then the propellers can make airplanes. Job done

Like bamboo bikes, wooden turbine blades: https://electrek.co/2022/11/16/wind-tu ... ming/

[Lazarus]

do sometimes wonder how long it'll be until there's nothing left worth saving.

Mid Wales was never worth saving

Realistically we all need to reduce usage( plane flights, car drives, new shiny bike bits etc) and hardly anyone is prepared to do it at the level required to save things.

[Hyppy]

I'm a bit of a wind farm enthusiast, taking in our two local ones—stuck between the Lakes and the Dales—regularly on rides, but understand they're divisive. I also think we're kinda lucky in that they're small farms of only 5 and 6 turbines respectively so perhaps not as overwhelming to the landscape as other sites, particularly those north of the border.
I caught a nice view of the Northern lights up at Armistead the other month, which is the wind farm the Dales Divide route takes in not far from the finish.

052741A7-C4EC-45F7-B96D-48EC22730E9D_1_105_c.jpeg (81.72 KiB) Viewed 554 times

[darbeze]

I am just an ordinary man in his fifties.

I try to live a modest life and use less wherever and whenever I can. My reason for posting about the wind farm proposal was to provide information to a group of people that I have been part of since 2013 that I thought was relevant.

The other reason I posted the information is that since 2013, I have got know people that live locally (Looking at you Stu and Dee) that have become my friends. It is not my back yard, but it is theirs, and others who live in the area. I want to do what little I can to protect their back yard.

This is solely to raise awareness. It is up to you what you choose to do with the information, and none of my business.

Just a last piece from me on the proposal, this link contains more detail, including the proposed layout... https://esgairgaledenergypark.wales/esg ... mentation/

Si

[thenorthwind]

I love how this thread is full of reasoned argument and polite disagreement between people with wildly different views... Except one person who compared it to the other place and flounced out oh the irony

[faustus]

I love it that the other place is like a form of blasphemy! Dare not speak it's name. Fair enough though, as i've seen plenty of how threads descend on there...oh, I mean STW

[RIP]

STW

[thenorthwind]

[Asposium]

Have been reading this with interest.

In the UK we generate electricity via the following.....
Nuclear
Fossil fuels ...gas, coal, biomass, etc
Erratic renewables ...wind, sun
Dependable renewables ...hydro

Hydro is tiny, so forget that
Sun is also tiny

The average consumption yesterday was 32GW
(source: https://gridwatch.co.uk/)

Nuclear gives a little bit of base load (though most of the nuclear plants will go off-line before too long, then the huge cost of decommissioning. No-one considered taking them apart..
Essentially, in the UK, we use renewables where possible, then fill the gap with gas.
(go look at grid watch if interested)

It would help if the UK had more grid level storage, but we do not.
So, supply must equal consumption

Therefore, a question becomes....
How do we generate electricity?

Nuclear is expensive and bad for the future, burning fossil fuels is bad for the climate, wind turbines is bad for the view.

Electric cars and electric heating (heat pumps) will only add to the elec requirements.

[RIP]

supply must equal consumption

I'd say it's the opposite actually. It's like saying we should keep fishing our waters without regard to the future, or building miles of new motorways (or bypasses round bypasses round bypasses. "Why? - Arthur Dent. "You've got to build bypasses" - Mr Prosser).

As Stu says, consumption is the elephant in the room. All new buildings should be carbon neutral for example. Aside from 'climate change' debates that's just a sensible move anyway.

It amuses me that people frequently denigrate 'environmental' initiatives. What? You don't want better air and water quality? More pleasant living spaces? Streets where kids can play like we used to? etc etc.

I'm glad Si rewound us to his original point though - the proposal is something in Bearbones back yard and has an effect on that area. The much wider issues are what we digressed onto .

[Dave Barter]

Living by the sea and witnessing day in day out the power of the tides that are ALWAYS flowing, unlike wind, I find it amazing that we've not properly invested in harnessing this free power that surely could be done in a much less obtrusive manner.

[Asposium]

supply must equal consumption

I'd say it's the opposite actually.

If supply cannot equal consumption (demand) then grid failure will result.

An example often used is when many people are watching, say, the word cup final.
Consumption is fairly static.
The grid operator is waiting for half-time
Knowing that at half-time people will go put the kettle on, and use the toilet (water needs to be pumped, pumps use electricity)
So,
To keep the grid in balance there is power on stand-by

Along time ago i was cycling in the lincolnshire wolds
A huge expanse with LOTS of wind turbines
There was also a gas fired power station

Couldn't quite figure it out.
After some research the gas fired power station(s) are back-up operating on spinning reserve.
When the wind power drops the gas power makes up the difference, thereby keeping supply constant.
It is the spinning energy in the turbine that give that immediate kick
If the wind stays dropped for sufficient time, thereby the generator slowing down then the operator "turns up the gas"

It is quite fascinating
And i do admit very geek

[Asposium]

Living by the sea and witnessing day in day out the power of the tides that are ALWAYS flowing, unlike wind, I find it amazing that we've not properly invested in harnessing this free power that surely could be done in a much less obtrusive manner.

the water is a very harsh environment to operate.
companies are trying
just very difficult
much like fusion ....20year, and we'll crack it

[RIP]

Living by the sea and witnessing day in day out the power of the tides that are ALWAYS flowing, unlike wind, I find it amazing that we've not properly invested in harnessing this free power that surely could be done in a much less obtrusive manner.

Fair point Dave. Although read up about the Severn barrage if you fancy a bit of controversy .

[whitestone]

Living by the sea and witnessing day in day out the power of the tides that are ALWAYS flowing, unlike wind, I find it amazing that we've not properly invested in harnessing this free power that surely could be done in a much less obtrusive manner.

There have been long term tests in the Pentland Firth (and no doubt other locations) for tidal power. ISTR these go back nearly 20 years maybe more. Given that sort of time span I suspect it's not quite as easy as first envisaged. Wind and solar power are the "low hanging fruit" as it were.

Back in the 1970s there were proposals to install a tidal barrage scheme in Morecambe Bay, there was also one for the Solway Firth, with the barrage extending from Morecambe to Barrow and having a road along the top. The road would have provided a quick route from the M6 to the shipyard in Barrow (national strategic, read defence, needs). Obviously it never came to fruition but the idea was resurrected a couple of years ago.

We (as a society) don't really have an efficient way to store electricity so as mentioned supply needs to balance demand. That means if we don't want more wind farms then we need to reduce our consumption/demand.

[Dave Barter]

My thinking is to bin the barrage and use the idea of fill/empty. So we construct tidal-filled basins which generate and store electricity as they empty.

[Asposium]

Living by the sea and witnessing day in day out the power of the tides that are ALWAYS flowing, unlike wind, I find it amazing that we've not properly invested in harnessing this free power that surely could be done in a much less obtrusive manner.

We (as a society) don't really have an efficient way to store electricity so as mentioned supply needs to balance demand. That means if we don't want more wind farms then we need to reduce our consumption/demand.

A fascinating thing to with the excess renewable energy would be to produce natural gas
First split water for the hydrogen
Then split carbon dioxide for the carbon
Combine to make methane
Which can be directly injected into the gas network
Oxygen as a waste gas that can be sold

This technology exists
But
Is expensive
As mentioned above, due to capitalism we want everything cheap, and that includes energy

Sure
One can stop at hydrogen
But there is an upper limit of the percentage of hydrogen in the "normal" gas network due to the pipework
Seem to recall about 10%

[whitestone]

There are various "alternative" battery technologies being developed/in use - gravity and sand are two that spring to mind.

Sand batteries basically work by taking the electricity and converting it to heat and heating a big f-off heap of sand to around 600C. We're talking 50 tonnes and upward here in very big containers. The container is really well insulated and can be above or below ground. Getting electricity back out is very inefficient but using the heat less so, meaning you could take the power from solar panels or wind farms, heat up the sand then slowly drain that heat off to heat a house or whatever.

Gravity batteries are already in use, we call them pump storage schemes and there's a few around the country, however there are newer types that can be best thought of as the driving mechanism of a super sized pendulum clock: take an old mine shaft; line it just to stop stuff getting snagged; lower a BIG lump of concrete down to the bottom; as power comes into the system the top side mechanism lifts the weight up the shaft. When you want it to provide power you let the weight descend and an alternator converts the potential energy back into electricity. A variant is to have cranes build a Jenga like tower out of interlocking blocks. This is apparently as least as efficient as the best chemical batteries.

A slight aside: my brother is looking at putting a small hydro plant on a beck that flows through his farm. The beck is maybe a little bit bigger, but not much so, than the one that flows past BB towers so not a huge water course. Combine with a sand battery and it might be possible to keep the house heated for little to no cost. Back in the 1940s there was a hydro plant lower down the same beck that provided power to four farms, obviously much less things were electric back then, we believe it just ran milking equipment (the one my dad used was just a very small compressor to work the suction cups attached to the udders) and the chiller units to keep the milk cool overnight. That system probably fell out of use when the area was connected to the national grid in the late 1950s/early 1960s.

[RIP]

The weights-in-mineshafts angle gets a lot of comment on mining forums that I frequent. Consensus seems to be you'd need hundreds of shafts (often waterfilled now) with weights the size of a battleship...

My point about "supply must match consumption" wasn't disagreeing that the system would fail if it didn't, but that perhaps we shouldn't continually grow consumption and expect to be able to cater for it.