Who'd have thunk it, an interesting article on Road.cc?

[jameso]

Of course everything is relative but the society in which we all live is in no way green and it's certainly not sustainable

If 50-70 years ago we knew what we know now I think we could have built a sustainable society. What we wouldn't have in that society is people who have personal wealth equivalent to whole countries, but fk 'em. They'd probably call me a Communist anyway : )

Ooh, some fluff.. I wonder if you could fill a sleeping bag with a lifetime's worth?

[Dave Barter]

Hang on we are all forgetting that the best thing we could do for the planet is f**k off and wreck another one. So let's just chuck everything at space travel and colonisation of better places with more beaches and no Merthyr Tydfils

[Lazarus]

No I got that, it's just daft cycle hating to say it's not green(er than car use)

The environment will be our generations slavery. Future generations ( we won't wipe us all out but lots of people live near the coast and are in big trouble.) will wonder, rightly, why we did it.

[Bearbonesnorm]

why we did it.

Money, greed. power, entitlement, stupidity ... am I close?

Trouble is, even when under the guise of green, we continue to play the same games ... there's a new proposal to erect a windfarm (they now call them energy parks) on the hills opposite the Star Inn (a place many of you will know). I recall, plans are for 28 turbines, each standing 230m or 750ft which is considerably taller than Blackpool Tower. Anyway, this proposal wasn't on the cards until a new wave of subsidies was announced, yet if it were such a brilliant idea then surely monetary incentive wouldn't be required?

On the face of it, it may seem like a good thing but what if we consider the overall impact from initial manufacture right through to decommission. Turbines require a lot of power to produce. They then need to be transported from Europe and once in the UK continue on to rural Wales. Many of the roads are unsuitable, so must be widened and straightened for this journey to happen. Upon arrival, roads must be cut into the hillside to facilitate erection (stop it) and then 20,000 tonnes of concrete poured into each base alongside 800 tonnes of steel reinforcing. Then, they'll also require connecting to the grid via a hub and pylons to transport electricity across the border. Maintenance is ongoing and will require engineers from both the UK and abroard. Turbines also tend to have a negative impact on bird life and also produce noticeable levels of noise.

Of course, many will likely see all that as a price worth paying or at least an unavoidable one and maybe they're right ... yet, would it not be far better and much more ecologically sound, if we were to encourage the population to reduce their consumption rather than forever trying to increase output? Do you really need 2 showers a day? Maybe wash those few pots by hand rather than putting the dishwasher on? Would it kill you to turn the thermostat down 2 degrees and maybe not leave your outside light on all night?

Weirdly, we don't do that with any level of enthusiasm because there's no money in it

[riderdown]

right through to decommission.

I doubt any will be, they'll just put new turbines on the site and forget about the concrete base they are supposed to remove from the old turbines

As for noise, some on the 2022 BB200 route were really loud

[Valerio]

why we did it.

Money, greed. power, entitlement, stupidity ... am I close?

Trouble is, even when under the guise of green, we continue to play the same games ... there's a new proposal to erect a windfarm (they now call them energy parks) on the hills opposite the Star Inn (a place many of you will know). I recall, plans are for 28 turbines, each standing 230m or 750ft which is considerably taller than Blackpool Tower. Anyway, this proposal wasn't on the cards until a new wave of subsidies was announced, yet if it were such a brilliant idea then surely monetary incentive wouldn't be required?

On the face of it, it may seem like a good thing but what if we consider the overall impact from initial manufacture right through to decommission. Turbines require a lot of power to produce. They then need to be transported from Europe and once in the UK continue on to rural Wales. Many of the roads are unsuitable, so must be widened and straightened for this journey to happen. Upon arrival, roads must be cut into the hillside to facilitate erection (stop it) and then 20,000 tonnes of concrete poured into each base alongside 800 tonnes of steel reinforcing. Then, they'll also require connecting to the grid via a hub and pylons to transport electricity across the border. Maintenance is ongoing and will require engineers from both the UK and abroard. Turbines also tend to have a negative impact on bird life and also produce noticeable levels of noise.

Of course, many will likely see all that as a price worth paying or at least an unavoidable one and maybe they're right ... yet, would it not be far better and much more ecologically sound, if we were to encourage the population to reduce their consumption rather than forever trying to increase output? Do you really need 2 showers a day? Maybe wash those few pots by hand rather than putting the dishwasher on? Would it kill you to turn the thermostat down 2 degrees and maybe not leave your outside light on all night?

Weirdly, we don't do that with any level of enthusiasm because there's no money in it

These assessments are carried out when working out if a project is feasible or not and its carbon footprint.
There's no reason why one can't try to reduce output and produce green energy at the same time.

We are currently relying on energy that is not 100% green, and our current requirements are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what we're able to produce sustainably.

Considering some people are still asking for coal mines, wind turbines are a necessary eyesore.

Unfortunately none does anything for the greater good hence why these projects only happen when monetary incentive is provided.

[jameso]

Unfortunately none does anything for the greater good hence why these projects only happen when monetary incentive is provided.

Especially true of the politicians involved

[fatbikephil]

Gawd, don't get started on wind turbines....
Huge amounts of energy to build, huge amounts of energy to maintain, BA electricity. Well not quite but the actual generated levels are pitiful when compared to what the developers claim. Given the vagaries of the wind versus grid usage, you need to back wind energy up with gas powered stations which can be switched on quickly if the wind drops during peak demand.

When the subsidies first appeared 20 odd years ago, loads went up in Scotland (not many in the south of England funnily enough) many in the North East of Scotland, ripping up vast areas of peatland (and importing gargantuan quantities of concrete for the founds) and permanently altering drainage and wetland. As it happens the Caithness and Sutherland raised peatlands are one of the worlds biggest absorbers of CO2....oops.

The developers claimed they had mitigated against this and the desolate and empty lands were ideal for wind turbines, two corporate lies for the price of one. Even better, we pay for it (hence all the energy price hikes last year) as wind generated electricity is so expensive. Even more better, the rich Highland landowners are netting millions in wayleaves for the windfarms, literally money for old rope.

I'm off to the pub!

[Lazarus]

you need to back wind energy up with gas powered stations which can be switched on quickly if the wind drops during peak demand.

I always thought use themntonpumpnwatwet up to a pressie and the use water for on demand hydro. Having lived off grid and with a turbine the issue is both not constant output and when it does max out no wa of storing the excess.

[Bearbonesnorm]

There's no reason why one can't try to reduce output and produce green energy at the same time.

Absolutely ... but my point is that we don't often do that. Very little is talked about reducing consumption when it could actually make a large and real difference.

Huge amounts of energy to build, huge amounts of energy to maintain, BA electricity. Well not quite but the actual generated levels are pitiful when compared to what the developers claim.

There's a fair number here Phil that have never been connected to the grid ... money was for erecting turbines, not for producing electricity.

[fatbikephil]

you need to back wind energy up with gas powered stations which can be switched on quickly if the wind drops during peak demand.

I always thought use themntonpumpnwatwet up to a pressie and the use water for on demand hydro. Having lived off grid and with a turbine the issue is both not constant output and when it does max out no wa of storing the excess.

Pump storage schemes are mega expensive and you need a fairly specific set of circumstances to make them work - an upland corrie / cwm that you can dam and another water body down a reasonable slope close by. They are looking to build a new one up near Lagan (western edge of Cairngorms) specifically to back up wind generation. There is already a huge controversy brewing about landscape and environmental impact....

Closer to home SGN are using offshore wind turbines to crack water into Hydrogen and Oxygen but it's a slow process. In theory it should be a good option for heating, if you have enough storage, but the trial scheme is under a concerted attack by the electricity generating lobby....

[BridlewayBimbler]

I'll start caring about the environment as soon as big corporations, useless self -serving politicians and pontificating billionaires like Musk, Bezos and Gates actually pull their heads out of their arses and stop hypocritically lecturing normal people about how they're killing the planet! I won't hold my breath!!!

[Valerio]

I'll start caring about the environment as soon as big corporations, useless self -serving politicians and pontificating billionaires like Musk, Bezos and Gates actually pull their heads out of their arses and stop hypocritically lecturing normal people about how they're killing the planet! I won't hold my breath!!!

That's the perfect attitude to achieve change

[voodoo_simon]

I'll start caring about the environment as soon as big corporations, useless self -serving politicians and pontificating billionaires like Musk, Bezos and Gates actually pull their heads out of their arses and stop hypocritically lecturing normal people about how they're killing the planet! I won't hold my breath!!!

I always thought Gates was one of the better ones but guess I better do my research better!

I guess we don’t hear much about the ‘good ones’ (TNF founder springs to mind)

Totally agree it’s down to governments and big corporations to change rather than the little people (I sometimes question why I’m washing out that yogurt pot to go into the recycling when I live close to an oil refinery, car plant, aircraft manufacturer and a nuclear storage plant to name a few…)

- - -

Chemmy Alcott wrote on article on the skiing World Cup and how they’ve had so much bad snow for the races in recent years, highlighting the need to reconsider this. Worth a read and it does highlight a problem, the need for sport and climate change
https://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-sports/68151487

The no fly rule would work so much better for the massive races held, like London and NY marathons rather than a small, fielded bike race.

- - -

Me? I’m guilty but I do try, one return flight in a handful of years but then I’m guilty of flying out to do winter races needing certain temperatures. Commuted by bike for 15 years and had no car but now I’m driving a ford transit everyday for a couple of hours and have a SUV that I share with mrs-voodoo… but then said car did a total of 350 miles for last years family holiday which I consider to be pretty damn good for a week away…

Also like to watch motorsport, that can’t be good for the environment but it’s good fun to watch

Always space for improvements but would it really add up or not?
Food for though

[BridlewayBimbler]

I'll start caring about the environment as soon as big corporations, useless self -serving politicians and pontificating billionaires like Musk, Bezos and Gates actually pull their heads out of their arses and stop hypocritically lecturing normal people about how they're killing the planet! I won't hold my breath!!!

That's the perfect attitude to achieve change

Laugh all you like, but the efforts of ordinary people like you and I mean sod all when those mentioned above continue with the same old same old while telling us plebs how to live.

[Lazarus]

Yet more rationalisation about why you don't personally have to change . We all have to change and I would no more base my behaviour on them( egotistical avaricious soulless types) than I would base it on Trump.

I don't know why you think bezos or musk lecture on this ( I don't really follow either but they are hardly the vanguard of the environmental movement). It's a massive red herring and simply your excuse to carry on doing your damage and blaming them . They are not responsible for your behaviour, you are.

[gecko76]

Do what you can, with what you've got, where you are.

Although this quote is widely attributed to Theodore Roosevelt, he credits it, in chapter 9 of his Autobiography, to Squire Bill Widener of Widener’s Valley, Virginia.

[gecko76]

That's not a criticism of anyone, by the way. Can, What and Where are very broadly interpretable, to the extent you could easily argue that I can do a long distance race in Alaska by whatever means it takes to get there because no other planets are available. Context is all. Just a plea for mindfulness really, but also to note that public opinion can and does shift, and we are all responsible, every day.

[MuddyPete]

... I live close to an oil refinery, car plant, aircraft manufacturer and a nuclear storage plant to name a few...

Wow! The Holy Grail of urban bivi spots .

[fatbikephil]

I do get the whole "what's the point of me doing anything given it will be roughly equivalent to re-arranging a single deckchair on the titanic" attitude, as it's very hard to change your life, particularly when it's something that could things more difficult, when you watch others with far greater impact happily pissing it all up the wall.

I rationalise it by thinking that a) most of the stuff I do that improves the environment is fun and b) it means I can be a smug, self righteous git

But to use a specific example, I've spent 20 odd years, with a few like minded individuals, doing some fairly low key woodland management in two locations in Scotland. In terms of transforming the whole place into a species rich, biodiverse landscape (rainforest no less) we are back to the deckchair on the titanic, but it's nice knowing that you are making one small part a good place.

The trick is convincing everyone else that it's fun - instead of flying abroad to spend a week lying on a beach, spend a week locally chopping down trees and burning them (there is more too it than that) with much quaffing of fine ale to celebrate each day. I mean I know what I'd rather do....

[Bearbonesnorm]

Recently, I read "you won't change the world by saving one dog but you'll change the world for that one dog".

Same attitude can be liberally applied elsewhere.

[BridlewayBimbler]

Yet more rationalisation about why you don't personally have to change . We all have to change and I would no more base my behaviour on them( egotistical avaricious soulless types) than I would base it on Trump.

I don't know why you think bezos or musk lecture on this ( I don't really follow either but they are hardly the vanguard of the environmental movement). It's a massive red herring and simply your excuse to carry on doing your damage and blaming them . They are not responsible for your behaviour, you are.

Not at all. I do my bit. I was on a.communiy.litter pick the other day.What I was trying to say-perhaps rather clumsily-was that my efforts and those.of the general public are cancelled out by the average mega corps carbon footprint and waste generation.

[voodoo_simon]

... I live close to an oil refinery, car plant, aircraft manufacturer and a nuclear storage plant to name a few...

Wow! The Holy Grail of urban bivi spots .

I’m a lucky man

Just saw an article about Taylor Swift, turns out an ‘expert’ claims (based on her flight patterns etc) that she uses between 8000-10,000 T of C02 whereas I’ve just done a basic online test that reckons I use about 6.5T….

Obviously take each figure with a pinch of salt but I can see where bridleway bimbler is coming from

[Lazarus]

Apparently she offsets it ( read bizarrely in An a article about her suing someone who lists her jet movements. Iirc it said she does the same with her tours ( debates about the ethics and usefulness of offsetting aside)

Point is we all can find people better than us or worse than us. Neither is a reason to not do your bit.

cancelled out by the average mega corps carbon footprint and waste generation

indeed they are but if no one bought from Amazon , till he did something, he would be green very quickly ( and pay his bloody taxes here as well if we boycotted). It is in our control ( though we may well be past the tipping point) if we all acted

[jameso]

Totally agree it’s down to governments and big corporations to change rather than the little people

It's on all of us. (edit to add, saw your post saying you're not saying this is a reason to do nothing)

We can make a case for blame-shifting like this but until we vote and spend with these considerations as a priority you can be 100% sure nothing will change. Politics and capitalism would love us all to do nothing or wait for top-down influence, it suits them fine.

But if people en masse make changes and make opinions clear there may be wider change. It's a choice between no chance and some chance?

Buy vegetarian options when eating out encourages chain restaurants to adjust what they buy, ignoring plastic-packaged goods is seen in spending patterns by supermarket buyers. That kind of thing. I agree it's small beans but it's small habits that build and become the norm, especially for those who can have greater impact through changes in a business or policy change. There is no single fix, it's all linked. Not flying for one bike event is part of that - a small change or point as part of a wider shift that we're a long way behind already?

They are not responsible for your behaviour, you are.

Exactly.