BB200 - a few thoughts.

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Alpinum
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by Alpinum »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:14 pm I'm also not sure which group might feel excluded by someone wearing one .
Possibly those with a lack of context and different sense of humour.
Perhaps a person who got caught w*nking by his/her parents and never got over it..? I have no clue but am regularly surprised by what people become offended and surely people are surprised by what offends me.
Alpinum wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:50 pm for a sensitive person having just gotten into cycling or bikepacking with a shiny gravel bike looking for inclusion,
Was just a guess.
Should have been an example of how quickly a misunderstanding can successively lead to feelings and
[...] someone told me that, in certain circles Bear Bones is viewed as being ‘less than inclusive’
- to quote from the linked post.
riderdown
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by riderdown »

someone told me that, in certain circles Bear Bones is viewed as being ‘less than inclusive’
And if you don't understand what they are referring to you can twist yourself in knots trying to work out what the problem is. That's if there is even a problem beyond someone influential in the out group letting people know they don't think the the event is "inclusive" because of a general perception they have..They could always have a "real" reason

Is it that it's too hard? (Yes I know that's the point and Stu organises other events, but some people might really want a badge)

No sag wagon

Is it who it's marketed at (mainly a small niche group in a corner of the internet)

Is it who turns up?

Is it the location? Time of year?

Is it the press releases (or lack of) promoting that this that or the other "insert out group here" are reserved places,did well last year, coming again, did really well etc, sustainable this that or the other

Or is it that the people in cycling influencer world with YouTube, insta etc avoid it ( I checked and it seems Juliet Elliott did it 3 years ago with 65k views, Allan and the other bids max out at 1.2k sorry), you could argue less videos might be more helpful.........


All of these are hard to change for one reason or another and it will always be unknown whether it will fix the perception issue or cause more or whether the shifting sands of perception will change without intervention
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by whitestone »

I can't remember if Stu mentioned it on here or it was a comment at the Community Centre but he'd been fending off people who hadn't camped before amongst other things. Maybe the "lack of inclusivity" is coming from people who've heard "no" for the first time and it's the attack du jour. How would they feel about things like the ITI where if you started now it could be three or four years before you had experience to enter the full version?

Certainly the first weekend of this year and last year's BB200 were very amenable weatherwise so getting a tent/tarp up wouldn't have been a problem but if the weather had been like 2018 then that would have been a whole different ball game.

For inclusivity *here* then probably the best person (to my knowledge) to comment is Shaf.
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by redefined_cycles »

Bob. I wanted to say ages ago in the thread (but then deleted my thoughts in case someone like Enoch Powell was listening in or we got someone feeling unincluded cos I'm here) that:

My name is Shafiq (or Shaf if you need to save a syllable :lol:) and I'm a muslim. Long beard, does my prayers, believes in what orthodox muslims believe. Love the Jews, hate the Zionists (not the ones that tell the actual truth - see The Generals Son by Mike Peled - but those with the crocodile tears that like the suffering of 'the others'.

I've experienced prejudism ever since the age at which I never even knew what was it (1st year of junior school, by the teacher and thankfully not the kids). Have left [forum name withheld] due to some Enoch Powell types being able to flourish and discuss they're hate. Have lost friends after standing up for my rights/beliefs or discussing colonialism/imperialism.

Have unsubscribed as paying member off another forum which really used to help me out in alot of DIY. Again, due to (blatant, this time) borderline Tommy Robinson type figures - I just don't like to rub shoulders with em and our prophet (Sallallahu-alayhi-wasallaam) advised us to just stay quiet and not debate with stupid people.

I've been a member on this here forum since 2016. Maybe (well, they have, or lay dormant) some have left due to being enraged by me (I wanted to say this and it's what I actually deleted) and my views when certain topics are approached. Lastly, oh yes... My ethics and beliefs mean I don't organise specific club/group events where it's mixed genders as I don't play out with the girls (and my wife does the same and it's not because of, but it is a reason we both work well with each other).

I don't drink, nor smoke and hence avoid group rides where that might be involved (the Quran tells us, not only to stay away from intoxication/alcohol but not to even go near it [metaphorically... if I've used that word correctly]. I also avoid using pubs in their traditional classification and don't feel the need - though I may use a tap on the wall, but going for a wee I'd probably prefer out in nature.

Sorry, this is getting long... But bear with me! So, to continue, I'm not stupid (if getting a good grade at uni is your definition of 'smart' then, yes I did get a 1st during my BSc - but for clarification my definition of being smart/wise/clever isn't the level of accreditation the 'institutions' give us) but often get people who have no clue about my religion, 'what [x, y or z] it actually meant'. As if they've been studying it since 12 years old! ie. during some quality time together [thankfully I only work with 'legends' and therefore never had this at work] after asking me a question or me trying to explain my stance - on something totally non inflammatory - I'll be told reeducated in a Jordan Peterson like manner about (WTH).

Anyone would think I'd stop frequenting myself with such folks, but... I actually really don't mind (some on here might now start questioning 'if it was me'... rest assured, if you have to ask yourself that, then it really wasn't as you're obviously too empathetic) as that's just how some people are :-bd (think they know more about you and your culture/beliefs than your own self) and it's no harm done as long as one party stays quiet.

Anyway, in case anyone wonders... Yes, I do get regulated [in a good or indeed, excellent way] but it's only to ensure things are kept on topic. I actually love (take it whichever way you will) the forum and the many friends (male and female... doesn't mean that cos I don'thave my downtime with the ladies/girls/females that I can't have a meaningful convo with em) I've made on it over the years. Not sure how it might evolve but for now I'm here to stay.

To conclude, sometimes some people might feel 'unincluded' cos I'm (or 'my sort'*) here with my own views/opinions. But, that's just my personal historic experience and means I have a conflict of interest in the matter. Hopefully, whoever made the remarks meant it in a constructive/positive way.

That way being, that the BB200 is too bloody hard. Yes Stu, you should ease it up and never have one as difficult as the 2014 and 2023 versions ever again. Some of us are trying to earn a black badge, so please have a heart. Next time you plan a route hopefully you include us (we know who we are, don't we Allen :lol: )

PS. JonC (in case you'rereading), thanks so much for the bivy invites :grin: and it wasn't cos the pubs were involved that I didn't couldn't come. But had I not had other work/time/priority pressures then yes the pub would mean 'I'm out'. But doesn't mean I'd felt unincluded, just that we see through a slightly different lens and have differing priorities of what's needed on an excellent bivy ride :lol:

*Yes, I have had that statement made at me whilst working in B&Q 20 years ago. It was from a female colleague whom I'd have considered a friend until then. Maybe I took it the wrong way, but it was said in them hidden condescending (IME) tones about some muslim customers who were speaking in their 'foreign' language.

It was actually some highly educated customers with English as their second language so it was easier for the husband to explain to the wife in her language. I never saw them as 'my people' but identified with the staff as 'my people'... Anyway, tangent.. sorry :-bd
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by redefined_cycles »

If anyone felt 'offended' by my blurb. I do apologise (like, sincerely) and it wasn't my intention. So you'll have to blame Bob :smile: (Whitestone).
riderdown
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by riderdown »

That way being, that the BB200 is too bloody hard. Yes Stu, you should ease it up and never have one as difficult as the 2014 and 2023 versions ever again. Some of us are trying to earn a black badge, so please have a heart. Next time you plan a route hopefully you include us (we know who we are, don't we Allen :lol: )
I disagree, Allen could have got a black badge if he hadn't stopped for a sleep in the bus stop, I passed him when he was in there so I know, some poor sod missed it by 20-30 mins last year.

I didn't get round this year as I wasn't mentally prepared for strata florida, the dodgy GPS bits didn't help either but strata Florida in the dark was next level. I probably could have finished sub 36 but my head had gone with the black badge and I had other commitments

The point is that the event for the less athletic non sub 15 crowd bb200 is a mental battle as much as anything, I watched the Juliet Elliott YouTube and it was so much deja vous missing turns, GPS into nothing, hike a bike etc, mental battle not to quit, 2022 I didn't, 2023 I did, 2024 who knows
Lastly, oh yes... My ethics and beliefs mean I don't organise specific club/group events where it's mixed genders as I don't play out with the girls (and my wife does the same and it's not because of, but it is a reason we both work well with each other).

I don't drink, nor smoke and hence avoid group rides where that might be involved (the Quran tells us, not only to stay away from intoxication/alcohol but not to even go near it [metaphorically... if I've used that word correctly].
Hopefully Shaf won't take this the wrong way but it's a demonstration why being totally inclusive can be hard as sometimes including some means others are excluded. It's a battle that organisers can never "win" the Lincoln quote comes to mind. "you can please all the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time"
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by RIP »

I've re-read Stu's original blog (whatever one of those is :wink:) post. The point is BB200/300 is hard. If it wasn't it wouldn't be what it is and would cease to exist, thereby becoming 100% uninclusive full stop. No, it should not be made "easier". 2018 is still talked about in reverential tones. Yes there should be another "2014".

So Stu's blog talks about "inclusivity". Oxford Dictionary: "Inclusivity: the practice or policy of providing equal access to opportunities and resources for people who might otherwise be excluded or marginalized, such as those having physical or intellectual disabilities or belonging to other minority groups".

Seems to me that isn't the same as "positive discrimination" or "welcoming", which are words also used or hinted at in this thread. I think we've done "welcoming" and "positive discrimination" is an extra can of worms I don't myself want to pursue here.

So "equal access". As far as I'm aware Stu doesn't turn down BB200 entrants on the basis of their politics, gender or religion, or character, so there's equal access (inclusivity) there. That leaves physical ability, mental ability and for want of a better word survivability. Stu's already said he had to turn people away because they hadn't camped before (survivability). A person who hasn't camped before, and in a BB200 situation, has some likelihood of causing Stu and emergency services a problem. As Stu says, he has a moral obligation to "exclude". So there we have "uninclusivity", by its definition, straightaway I'm afraid.

Also there's plenty of other "sanitised" bikepacking events that will "include" people who want or insist on an easier route, feed stations, good weather, easy obstacles, nice car parking, normal people, blah blah.

As far as the wider Bear Bones Family "inclusivity" is concerned, there is no obligation to have camped before although the inability to ride a bike would seem to be a step too far - so are we then "uninclusive" of non-bikeriders? And the aforementioned politics/religion/gender stuff obviously still applies. So now that we're talking about the much wider pastime of "bikepacking" not just BB200, we can bring in "physical or intellectual disabilities or belonging to other minority groups". I don't think Stu's ever excluded a new member, or even a WRT entrant, using those criteria. So I would say, yes, BBB as a group is "inclusive".

But.... in the same way that BB200 would not exist at all if it didn't exclude some entrants, I think wider BBB itself might well cease to exist if absolutely anybody was included as a member. Stu himself has said it's a place for oddballs. I'd add: ditch sleepers, wanderers, ITTers, challenge-lovers, explorers, eccentrics, minimalists, smellysockers, nochangeofclothesers, and many other characteristics. That's what makes it BBB. It's why I myself am here and not in any other bikepacking "club". If all the things in that list got too diluted or disappeared, selfishly speaking I would feel excluded. It would no longer be "Stu's BBB for oddballs"; it would not exist, and therefore it would exclude 100% of everybody.

And let's not forget Stu started all this, it's his gang - it was very informal, some random crackpots just turned up at a random location, said hello, joined in, rode around a bit, talked bollocks, slept under a tree, had a laugh and went home (but not in time for their tea). No obligations, no "policies" as per the above definition of "inclusivity". Does he want BBB to be something more than that? I'm always extremely conscious this is indeed Stu's baby, it's his (and Dee of course) "club" if you will. We can discuss and debate all we like but it's up to Stu.

We are not British Cycling or CTC or any sort of official "body" so we don't have "policies", nor indeed are we obliged to have any. We don't have a Constitution to adhere to. There's no ombudsperson to adjudicate or ensure we're sticking to any policies.

What I think I'm saying is, yes we're welcoming, yes we'll include people in the wider BBB "club" (but not necessarily BB200) if they are keen to join in, but what we do is "difficult" and "weird" and it's up to Stu not us if he wants BBB to "look like that".

I also think we do pretty well Here not getting too heated or overt about politics, religion, gender etc. That is part of being inclusive. And there's enough of that Outside anyway to keep us all happy. Having said that, I think "political" discussions concerning cycling, bivvying, land access etc are fair game, since those are things that affect our little "club".
Last edited by RIP on Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:28 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by Cheeky Monkey »

Can I get a sticker "Bloody hell my navel's fascinating" please Stu?

P&L, just pulling legs :cool: :cool:
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by redefined_cycles »

Hopefully Shaf won't take this the wrong way but it's a demonstration why being totally inclusive can be hard as sometimes including some means others are excluded. It's a battle that organisers can never "win" the Lincoln quote comes to mind. "you can please all the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time"
Not taken wrong way at all and I agree that to be inclusive, some have to be left out and visa versa (not even gonna try to get my head around the visa versa and if it fits this, but you know what I mean). I think I might have not articulated very well (and had thought about coming and just deleting my post in case it gets misunderstood) but yes, the fact that some on here like to frequent 'the pub' for which reason I wouldn't join such a group ride anyway, I definitely don't think I'm not included.

If that makes sense. Also, the fact that Stu has the ride starting at a community centre and not ending with a beer party, means that both drinkers and non drinkers alike are included. It's actually one of the reasons why I don't go to many other events (but don't feel left out, in the same way that if I started a ride from/to the masjid I'd not be offended if some felt it uneasy to take part) and one such I wanted to join went like this.

So the event starts or ends at a pub (with a party). I asked the organiser and explained that due to religious preferance I wouldn't be able to end at the pub (our prophet taught us that you have to be seen to be doing the right thing or, not doing the wrong thing and thus avoiding the court of public opinion). He/she was very nice about it and made an exception for myself that I wouldn't need to attend the compulsory post ride party.

I didn't enter (or pulled out, whatever) but I didn't feel excluded. Just wasn't for me. Do I have the same problem with the BB events - winter; WRT; BB200) - well the BB200 is the comm centre so I'm sorted. The WRT is from BB towers so again I'm sorted (even if there was a marquee with tipple, I wouldn't need to associate or hang around that particular venue as I'm sure BB towers has a big enough field space). Winter Event, it's not for me. But do I feel excluded... Nope :grin: not at all...
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by RIP »

whitestone wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:30 am For inclusivity *here* then probably the best person (to my knowledge) to comment is Shaf.
and if we're suggesting specific Boners, which I feel a little uneasy about TBH, I would add Verena (sorry to spotlight you V :smile: ), indeed any other female Boners obviously.
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by Richard G »

riderdown wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:49 am I disagree, Allen could have got a black badge if he hadn't stopped for a sleep in the bus stop, I passed him when he was in there so I know, some poor sod missed it by 20-30 mins last year.
Not really on topic at this point, but that's not how it works. I go all night because I can't sleep (was the same on the BB300 as the BB200). That doesn't mean I'm maintaining anything like the pace I could do if I'd have been able to sleep though.

In my earlier / slower days I was passed by a number of people who had stopped for a kip whereas I'd ploughed on as best I could.
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by thenorthwind »

Cheeky Monkey wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:59 am Can I get a sticker "Bloody hell my navel's fascinating" please Stu?
:lol:
RIP wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:32 am We are not British Cycling or CTC or any sort of official "body" so we don't have "policies", nor indeed are we obliged to have any. We don't have a Constitution to adhere to. There's no ombudsperson to adjudicate or ensure we're sticking to any policies.
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by riderdown »

Not really on topic at this point, but that's not how it works. I go all night because I can't sleep (was the same on the BB300 as the BB200). That doesn't mean I'm maintaining anything like the pace I could do if I'd have been able to sleep though
I get the sleep helps you go faster, however I was crawling by then and if he'd kept going he'd have been caught by at least two riders at the "walking up every incline" stage of a BB200. The morale lift alone would have helped
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by redefined_cycles »

Me mentioning Allen being uninclusive-ised (that's not a word, sorry) cos of still not having earned a black badge. Twas really a joke. Really. Hope he or Stu don't get offended :smile:
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by JohnClimber »

redefined_cycles wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:31 am If anyone felt 'offended' by my blurb. I do apologise (like, sincerely) and it wasn't my intention. So you'll have to blame Bob :smile: (Whitestone).
Well I'm offended.....
redefined_cycles wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:26 am PS. JonC (in case you're reading), thanks so much for the bivy invites :grin: and it wasn't cos the pubs were involved that I didn't couldn't come.
There's a H in John........ :wink:

PS, Sameer was with us and he joined us in the pub with no issuses just picking the right food and drink for him?
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by redefined_cycles »

JohnClimber wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:28 pm
redefined_cycles wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:31 am If anyone felt 'offended' by my blurb. I do apologise (like, sincerely) and it wasn't my intention. So you'll have to blame Bob :smile: (Whitestone).
Well I'm offended.....
redefined_cycles wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:26 am PS. JonC (in case you're reading), thanks so much for the bivy invites :grin: and it wasn't cos the pubs were involved that I didn't couldn't come.
There's a H in John........ :wink:

PS, Sameer was with us and he joined us in the pub with no issuses just picking the right food and drink for him?
:-bd Thanks John (and it's always nice when you ask... nor did I say 'unable' this time cos of the pub - but would have explained myself out of it once I realised).

Different stroke for different folk. I just prefer to stay away totally, especially since I have a family member who's either now in chronic liver failure or slowly getting there. Drinking himself to death and it helps me hate it even further.

No offence intended to anyone nor to any breweries (before they get involved in the whole fake-news thing).
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by Asposium »

.
Last edited by Asposium on Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by JohnClimber »

Back on subject.

We are very inclusive, but the problem for some thinking the BB200 is just another "event" is that they need everything in place and all their ducks in a row, with a GPX, sweepers, an organised campsites in the middle of a 2 day ride are the normal for these bike packers.
These people need to know where to go with a GPX because maybe they have never needed to read a map.

Us Boners (especially) me usually set off on a Plan A of a ride, but as the day lengthens Plan F to X sometimes comes in to play and where we can lay our heads for the night is sometimes nowhere near Plan A's original idea.

We are adaptable and know when to change our plans to suit ourselves, our group's needs or we know when to scratch and call it a day.
Those who pay £50 to £100 a "bike packing event" need a guaranteed base overnight and would not be able to cope with a Plan B let alone a Plan D
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by Valerio »

jameso wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:11 pm Same with other less represented groups, R6pha's events for example, they've done more than most to open up riding in recent years.
I tried to sign up to the R4PH4 bikepacking rides twice in the last two years.
As a beginner bikepacker I thought they'd be perfect for me to get some experience.
(They also cost £150 that I was happy to pay, which IMHO isn't a little amount of money)

An event that asks all sort of questions about ethnicity, skin colour, gender, sexuality and social media status to screen people out of it or into it (and then take some nice photos of participants as poster-persons to demonstrate the brand "inclusivity") isn't in my opinion even remotely inclusive.

That has really put me off trying to enter ever again (and buying any R4ph4 gear for what matters).
Perhaps if I do try to enter again in the future I'll play the foreigner card haha

I believe that participants to an event that has a limited number of places should be selected (IF a selection is to be made) based on:
- commitment to take part to the event (i.e. not because they got a massive discount or a free ticket)
- understanding/knowledge of what the event is about, its rules, challenges etc
- experience

There is no point reserving a % of entries to a group of potential participants - whatever they look like - that have not enough drive to make it to the end/not enough knowledge of what expects them/have not got sufficient ability nor experience to make it (while not putting themselves in trouble in the process).

I've seen people scratching from the HT550 within 24hrs because they hands hurt or it was too hard(!!!), which seems an incredible waste of a space and opportunity for someone else to enjoy a fantastic event.

I appreciate I say this as a privileged white man, but any form of discrimination isn't a good thing in my opinion.
Last edited by Valerio on Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:50 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by Valerio »

JohnClimber wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:38 pm Those who pay £50 to £100 a "bike packing event" need a guaranteed base overnight and would not be able to cope with a Plan B let alone a Plan D
You couldn't be more wrong. I'd be carefully making these broad (and not inclusive) statements.
You might bump into some newbie showing up, finishing within 10min from their plan A and going home with a black badge.
Last edited by Valerio on Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Hope he or Stu don't get offended
I'm possibly impossible to offend Shaf :wink:
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by frogatthefarriers »

You don’t have to be non-inclusive for people to feel excluded.

Let me explain. Many years ago, when I was still riding my motorbike, (1957 BSA C12) I went a few times to a local-ish BSA Owners Club.

They were definitely not non-inclusive, but I never really felt that I could fit in. They were committed rally-goers and bike-showers, with long distance and foreign rides under their belts. I, on the other hand, was a local plugger without the funds for that sort of commitment.

I felt as though I could never fit in with these people - never take full part in the club activities, so eventually just stopped going. They did nothing to make me feel excluded -they just did club stuff, I excluded myself.

So what do we do? There’s nothing we can do to include everyone. Best to carry on as we are and let people include themselves if they wish.
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by jameso »

An event that asks all sort of questions about ethnicity, skin colour, gender, sexuality and social media status to screen people out of it or into it (and then take some nice photos of participants as poster-persons to demonstrate the brand "inclusivity") isn't in my opinion even remotely inclusive.
As Alpinum said further up, it depends what they're aiming for. If you can't measure something you don't know if there's change?

I'm with you on not making assumptions about people's ability* or who pay to ride events, managed camping etc. Some people do both the supported and self-sufficient things. It might just depend on who they're riding with on the supported stuff or it's just like riding road one day, mtb the next. Perhaps emphasis on what is more or less valid as 'bikepacking', is the 'less than inclusive' point someone might be hinting at. Who knows. You asked them yet Stuart? :)

*never having camped out before aside, fair's fair there
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by Dave Barter »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:54 pm
Hope he or Stu don't get offended
I'm possibly impossible to offend Shaf :wink:
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Re: BB200 - a few thoughts.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

<lights fire on heathland then Instagrams self whilst wearing R&pha pants>
Ahh, don't confuse something which would cause offence with something that would simply make me think you're a nob :wink:
May the bridges you burn light your way
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