New long distance Cycle UK route in Wales - Traws Eryri

[Cheeky Monkey]

Grauniad:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... n-in-wales

Cycling UK Routes page:
https://www.cyclinguk.org/traws-eryri-0

and Youtube promo film:
https://youtu.be/pFrNYMM-Xbs

FYI

Edit:

And if you’re wondering how Traws Eryri is pronounced: ‘Traws’ rhymes with ‘mouse’; Eryri is ‘eh-ruh-ree’.

[MarkW]

122 miles long, 4000+ meters. Almost a BB200 route.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I kind of don't the 'excitement'. There's nothing new, no one has built trails or even cleared old ones. Everything was there before and it was simply a case of joining the dots - something which anyone could have (and has on numerous occasions) done before. Is it a 'new' route or just a well publicised existing one?

[boxelder]

I kind of don't the 'excitement'. There's nothing new, no one has built trails or even cleared old ones. Everything was there before and it was simply a case of joining the dots - something which anyone could have (and has on numerous occasions) done before. Is it a 'new' route or just a well publicised existing one?

I feel this about most advertised routes, but for areas that I've not much knowledge of, they should give a fairly reliably good trip. When routes in areas I do know well, I'm usually thinking "why does it go that way/why does it miss that trail?" etc. There are plenty of riders who have very little idea/skill/confidence in route planning and don't have the time. Most people want to be told what's good and then they buy in and can share that they've 'done it'. Isn't it a bit like branded clothing, music or 'must visit' sites splashed all over social media. Everyone else thinks it's best, so it must be - and I've done it/bought it.
I'm just a grumpy, cynical auld feck though.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I'm just a grumpy, cynical auld feck though.

I'm trying not to be ...... it's hard

There are plenty of riders who have very little idea/skill/confidence in route planning

This is the trouble. No one is born with the ability to do this, it's something which needs a little practice and in reality it's not that difficult but can be quite rewarding.

[Lazarus]

why does it go that way/why does it miss that trail?"

Riding some i think they have done it to simply hit some mileage target
They are useful for areas you don't know but when they are in areas I do know I almost always change them as I disagree with routing choices
Eg looking at old YD 300 and am detouring into Hawes, for supply options, and i.dont want to ride up the old roman road the route does so taking a different way up. ( smooth tarmac)

[boxelder]

i.dont want to ride up the old roman road the route does

I know what you mean. I split it with a bivvy half way up. T'was lovely topping out at dawn.

[whitestone]

why does it go that way/why does it miss that trail?"

Riding some i think they have done it to simply hit some mileage target
They are useful for areas you don't know but when they are in areas I do know I almost always change them as I disagree with routing choices
Eg looking at old YD 300 and am detouring into Hawes, for supply options, and i.dont want to ride up the old roman road the route does so taking a different way up. ( smooth tarmac)

As we found out at the weekend - apart from the pubs and the chippy everything (and I mean everything) shuts in Hawes at around 6pm. That includes the Spar!

[Lazarus]

everything (and I mean everything) shuts in Hawes at around 6pm.

Ta for heads up , at least it has things to shut as its a fairly poorly supplied route ( poor enough I will likely carry 70% of the calories needed to complete)
It's basically get lucky with pub meal times* then great resupply options at the end !

* most seem to be 5-8 pm only.

[Cheeky Monkey]

I kind of don't the 'excitement'. There's nothing new, no one has built trails or even cleared old ones. Everything was there before and it was simply a case of joining the dots - something which anyone could have (and has on numerous occasions) done before. Is it a 'new' route or just a well publicised existing one?

You're undoubtedly right in some ways Stu but isn't that the case for most (every?) bike "route", ever, anywhere? Are you a bit "less than enthusiastic" as this is your "backyard" and maybe, for you, it's a case of familiarity-breeding-contempt, to some degree. Locals and people with enough experience, skill(?), inclination, time etc could do it of course but it serves a purpose and (in some nebulous way maybe) contributes to the overall "good" of cycling, recreation, opportunities etc.

I think there is mention of some negotiations and access permissions too.

Hey ho, it's all peeps on bikes so generally a good thing (IMO)

Edit - I also think it's a good thing for C-UK themselves, sort of a positive feedback loop. Hopefully it'll help give more power to their elbow and ultimately that might means so wider, bigger, grander improvements

Dear lord, I've clearly had an optimism injection

[samwise]

If people buy a guide and support the great campaign work that Cycling UK are doing then its never a bad thing?

History lesson from Guy here too! https://youtu.be/v5BZtiOYwZM?feature=shared

[Bearbonesnorm]

You're undoubtedly right in some ways Stu but isn't that the case for most (every?) bike "route", ever, anywhere? Are you a bit "less than enthusiastic" as this is your "backyard" and maybe, for you, it's a case of familiarity-breeding-contempt, to some degree. Locals and people with enough experience, skill(?), inclination, time etc could do it of course but it serves a purpose and (in some nebulous way maybe) contributes to the overall "good" of cycling, recreation, opportunities etc.

I was more meaning the excitement in general - the KAW would be another example.

I'm in no way saying it's negative, simply that I don't quite understand the degree of excitement these routes seem to generate.

[RIP]

You're undoubtedly right in some ways Stu but isn't that the case for most (every?) bike "route", ever, anywhere? Are you a bit "less than enthusiastic" as this is your "backyard" and maybe, for you, it's a case of familiarity-breeding-contempt, to some degree. Locals and people with enough experience, skill(?), inclination, time etc could do it of course but it serves a purpose and (in some nebulous way maybe) contributes to the overall "good" of cycling, recreation, opportunities etc.

I was more meaning the excitement in general - the KAW would be another example.

I'm in no way saying it's negative, simply that I don't quite understand the degree of excitement these routes seem to generate.

Hurrah, Grumpies Unite!

"Excitement" does seem to be overegging the thing somewhat. But then I can't talk - I get excited by spiders webs shimmering in the sunshine, a slice of marmite toast, jumping off a train in the middle of nowhere, sitting under a tarp in the pissing rain.

But like you Stu, I definitely get irrationally grumpy each time I hear about yet another new route. Yes I sort of get the "encourages newbies out there", and "keeps cycling's profile raised" etc etc, but I'm not convinced about any economic benefits. If someone didn't do that new route they would probably have spent time in another place instead - zero sum. I suppose it might help to redirect munificence from "well off" or "overcrowded" areas to less well off ones, but who judges that? As per Stu, it's not "exciting" in itself - the stuff's there already. One could say it's less exciting in as much as that the fun of exploring, even for newbies, is diminished in some small way. Still, mustn't grumble, if it keeps the spotlight off the really exciting stuff then..... oo-er, elitism alert! .

[Cheeky Monkey]

I'm in no way saying it's negative, simply that I don't quite understand the degree of excitement these routes seem to generate.

I suspect the combination of things required to generate excitement in you is very specific, unique, entirely personal and quite probably a wee bit odd

[jameso]

I like how this starts very close to where the Trans Cambrian Way ends.

I'm not convinced about any economic benefits. If someone didn't do that new route they would probably have spent time in another place instead - zero sum

How about if it encourages someone from the UK to ride in Wales because it looks so good in the route guide they've produced, rather than flying abroad for a different trip? All power to Cycling UK for adding to the appeal of cycling in the UK I reckon

[Bearbonesnorm]

I suspect the combination of things required to generate excitement in you is very specific, unique, entirely personal and quite probably a wee bit odd

You might not be far off the truth there Tim.

[Dave Barter]

My none serious cycling buddies love these routes. To them they are our equivalent of HT550, Tour Divide, BB200 etc.. I love what Cycling UK have done here and hope they keep it up. Every time one is released they all start babbling about doing it. My 75 year old mate Barbara just did KAW and it has changed her life. She’s bought loads of bikepacking kit, packed in boat rowing and spends her weekends bikepacking. These routes put mere mortals on the map.

[Tractionman]

I like how this starts very close to where the Trans Cambrian Way ends.

I'm not convinced about any economic benefits. If someone didn't do that new route they would probably have spent time in another place instead - zero sum

How about if it encourages someone from the UK to ride in Wales because it looks so good in the route guide they've produced, rather than flying abroad for a different trip? All power to Cycling UK for adding to the appeal of cycling in the UK I reckon

I think you're right there, on the CyclingUK forum there is a thread on this TE route and one poster asked about places to stay etc -- 'credit card' bikepacking -- and recently the BBC ran a feature on the economic 'boost' from the Cantii Way -- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-66536833

Personally I prefer making up my own off-road routes using maps spread on the kitchen table, but these prescribed routes like TE etc, with their GPX files, gets folks out on their bikes, which can only be a good thing IMO!

[whitestone]

I don't see a problem apart perhaps from one...

How much "notice" are businesses and the like given that there's a new route going to be promoted that passes by their door? On a different scale but the promotion of the NC500 seems to have been done without consideration to the local infrastructure - cue all the problems with the sudden influx of campervans, etc. and associated disposal of waste; extra camping/RV facilities and so on.

When we did the KAW a couple of years ago it was very busy with cyclists doing it - that might have had something to do with it being close to London and other large population centres in the SE. I think that was about 18-24 months after it "went live".

[Bearbonesnorm]

I don't see a problem apart perhaps from one...

I'm not sure there actually is a problem Bob, my comment was just one of surprise. However (and didn't you know that was coming), I was just thinking and am further surprised that it's not a circular route given that there's no direct train link between the start and finish (at best you have to travel to Shrewsbury before heading back west and into Wales).

[labrat]

I don't see a problem apart perhaps from one...

How much "notice" are businesses and the like given that there's a new route going to be promoted that passes by their door? On a different scale but the promotion of the NC500 seems to have been done without consideration to the local infrastructure - cue all the problems with the sudden influx of campervans, etc. and associated disposal of waste; extra camping/RV facilities and so on.

When we did the KAW a couple of years ago it was very busy with cyclists doing it - that might have had something to do with it being close to London and other large population centres in the SE. I think that was about 18-24 months after it "went live".

KAW was perhaps slightly different, because we launched after the covid lockdowns (though there was a couple of years of discussion and work up beforehand) in the realisation, and hope, of giving a real boost to a rural tourism economy that had been absolutely hammered - so at the time ,everything was still in flux, lots of places that had gone to the wall and others that were still only just reopening. Where possible we took it into some locations with a good level of facilities including travel-inn’s and train stations (Winchester, Reading, Farnham) or close by other facilities with a bit of a diversion (Pewsey Vale, Marlborough, Wantage, Petersfield), there’s a bit of a hole around Market Lavington but the local businesses near that section seem to have done very well from it and have improved their secure bike parking etc)

WKW, Rebellion & Caanti weren’t, originally, planned for circular routes, but as a promotion of hub locations as part of an EU rural tourism support grant, lots of issues that I won’t discuss there, but the routes came out as a bit of a salvage plan - but notable that we had funding to support businesses on the route and promote them. One thing at, regretfully, didn’t happen was grants for secure cycle lockers for B&B etc. businesses and I’m still rather frustrated over that failure.

Traws Eryri - planned in from the start we viewed one of the goals as linking together the existing trail centres and ‘adventure tourism’ locations like BYC and (short diversion) Dolgellau as we knew they had already grown a decent level of cycle friendly accommodation, bike shops etc. around the MTB market, so this route diversifies the existing cycle tourism offer in the area from just trail centres into something bigger, but ties in with that existing infrastructure of businesses that already cater to MTB’ers.

So, I hope that explains that there is some sort of ‘plan’ here.

Regards some other points above, to some extent it’s a bit like ‘why have trail centres been successful’ - a large part of this is that a lot of people simply don’t have the time and inclination to plant their own routes/itineraries confidently - the small number of enthusiast bikepackers aren’t necessarily thr target market, it’s more the people who do need some handholding and probably wouldn’t do this at all without that inspiration & handholding - also that they very likely wouldn’t even have considered these areas - it would never have occurred to me just how nice Norfolk or Kent might actually be to cycle around.

The bigger picture in all this is, of course, access - seven years ago (as a volunteer at that point) I set out on a plan to try and soften the image of mountain biking (&/or off-road cycling) that came across to politicians & other groups when access was discussed - because what I was hearing then was still extremely negative - and I paint this in a light of over twenty years of advocacy. Prior to Foot & Mouth we were hated, after that things improved a lot, but the growth of unauthorised trailbuilding and red-bull/monster, hardcore rad to the X-treme image of MTB was really causing increasing problems and resistance, particularly from equestrians and from land managers like natural england - work like ‘be nice say hi’ (not all us, but we dragged British horse society into it), plus the routes work has created an image that’s far more ‘ramblers on wheels’ and ‘adventure not adrenaline’ and the economic arguments of, for example, politicians seeing routes like this as supporting local businesses and contributing to the rural economy makes improved access for MTB look a bit more like an opportunity than a threat (and I assure you it really was seen as that for a long time) and demonstrates that routes can be used as a way to promote and manage users rather than trying to just ban them.

Much more work to do - keeping our eye on Dartmoor for the next stage of the Byelaw review. Recent sicessful threat of a legal challenge for Coast to
Coast has resulted in National Parks and Natural England talking to us more, and we should see much better inclusion of bikes and horses, hopefully on a braided route there (with potential knock on Impacts on other national trails, and we know that Pennine Bridleway northern extension is on the radar… plus of course the big upcoming issue is the election, with Labour Party still being somewhat equivocal on whether bikes and horses will be included in their right to roam plans - hence, of course, why all the above work to demonstrate a positive image of MTB as responsible users as discussed above is so important.

Hope that explains a bit of the thought behind this and how it fits in.

Guy covers a bit of that context in his recent article on TE. https://www.bikeperfect.com/features/be ... boundaries

[labrat]

I don't see a problem apart perhaps from one...

I'm not sure there actually is a problem Bob, my comment was just one of surprise. However (and didn't you know that was coming), I was just thinking and am further surprised that it's not a circular route given that there's no direct train link between the start and finish (at best you have to travel to Shrewsbury before heading back west and into Wales).

Originally the idea was a quick win as part of covid recovery, just running from Dolgellau/CYB to Betws-Y-Coed. As so often with these things, It’s took longer than hoped and grown in scale, and it’s unashamedly unfinished due to the constraints that we have had to work in, part of that being the complete stalling of access reform that did seem on the Cards, if not Imminent, when we set about on this whole thing

For info, There were a few sections that have caused issues, one is a short (200 yard) section where the underlying land ownership past Manod Quarry lies with Crown Estate, and we haven’t (yet) been able to finalise consent - The rest of that section is owned by NRW and National Trust, who have been supportive, but have constraints themselves like concerns from CADW over potential damage to the incline - so yeah, we’ve ended up with a diversion there - of course, most of you will know that section is already in fairly common use anyway, most of it is on access land already, so a right of access on foot (and, indeed, perfectly ok to push a bike too ) but that’s the constraints we work in in order to be able to publish a route unfortunately.

We had another issue with a landowner near Abergonolwyn who was on board but who pulled at last minute due to liability concerns over forestry work (being honest, unauthorised use played a part in that decision too) and there’s some just ridiculous stuff up at the Conwy end with S193 commons that allow horses but not bikes - and with a section of the Roman road that we’re now putting a DMMO in on the basis of researching the 1777 turnpike act via parliamentary archives. Hopefully this gives an insight into how deep the rabbit hole we’ve been into to try and make this work goes.

As for the fact that it’s linear rather than circular…. Spoilers :) - but just assume that it starting so close to the end of the Trans Cambrian wasn’t entirely an accident…

Realistically, that is going to need the WG (or new Labour Westminster government) delivering on access reform to deliver - access reform (and I was on the ARAG group for Welsh government) would transform the Traws Eryri route in several places and, I think, give us the missing bits I have pencilled in for completion of the circular route.

[whitestone]

Ta.

Have done Cycle UK, Bikepacking.com and other "published" routes before so definitely not against them especially for the south where my otherwise, ahem <cough> encyclopaedic</cough> geographical knowledge falls short. For much of Wales, the north of England and Scotland I'm happy making things up as I go along

and we know that Pennine Bridleway northern extension is on the radar

We live not far from the PBW and the section between Gisburn and Long Preston is little used even by the horse riders - lack of parking. livery and other facilities is one reason I've been told. For bikers it's probably that the section is lowland and gets overgrown very easily unlike the Pennine area to the south and the Dales to the north - it's more pleasant just to stick to the roads for that bit. TBH I don't see much evidence of equestrian use on the section to the south either, again there's not much in the way of facilities. A bit of a Catch-22 situation methinks.

The Second City Divide route has "plugged the gap" between the Eden Valley and Kielder so unless they are desperate to do something new then much has been done.

[fatbikephil]

Stuff like this is fine - you can bung a gpx into your chosen gadget, hop on your bike and bugger off for a few days. No mental input required - I do like endless route planning but sometimes it's nice to follow someone elses cues. Call it the bikepacking equivalent of a package holiday

[Tractionman]

thanks labrat for the insights there, interesting to hear what goes into making things happen, all the best for its success

cheers,

Keith