Feed Zone Portables & calorific requirements

[dlovett]

Well I have finally got a copy, thanks for the earlier recommendation. It's got some great recipes in it that I look forward to trying out.

The science behind it is very interesting and the intro section talks about when you need to eat for fuel and not. One of the reasons for getting it was to science up my nutrition for this years events. I've spent the last six months pretty much recording every data metric possible about myself and using these to help predict performance, energy requirements etc. I'm trying to find data on energy consumption for long distance events and have struggled to find much online. Most of the data out there is for flat events or road climbing/ultra running and I'm after long distance on/off road BB200 type courses data. Does anybody have any they could share ideally calorific consumption, power output etc? No idea if anybody has done a BB type thing with a power meter even.

Ideally I'd like to try to make a realistic plan for my YD300/BB200 attempts this year using predicted courses and my own performance data to work out my predicted calorific requirements, so I can plan it accordingly. I've spent a lot of time on fitness prep this year and the expense of time on the bike, so I am trying to do everything I can do to help myself complete them.

Many thanks in advance

[redefined_cycles]

Duncan. I usually measure my calories out on the mtb and road bike. Only problem is (like you said) the mtb is only with the heart rate monitor (the Polar one mind, they're meant to be the best, so at least HR nimbers are accurate enough) but the road bike is with both dual sided PM and the HRM chest strap on.

Sounds to me like you could do with investing in a smart training watch (like the Suunto something 9) and get yourself a sub with ICU intervals (what Bob recommended) and it works really well. Helps me not overtrain and get a nice idea of when to taper off to ensure I'm fully ready for the big day/days.

You got a link to the above app/book you mention please? Ta..

[Taylor]

You got a link to the above app/book you mention please? Ta..

https://www.wob.com/en-gb/books/biju-th ... R005873202

[riderdown]

Ideally I'd like to try to make a realistic plan for my YD300/BB200 attempts this year using predicted courses and my own performance data to work out my predicted calorific requirements, so I can plan it accordingly

Based on my completely stuffing up my feeding at BB200 last year you are possibly over thinking things as I still managed to plod round sub 24 and I'm not fit nor trained

As I understand things you need to balance what when and how much you eat. Also do you carry it or rely on food stops and then be clear on what you are buying and it needs to be palatable especially when tired

My experience was that I was essentially staving off the bonk for a good half the ride with a few jelly babies and the emergency chocolate covered Kendal mint cake which I nibbled. I managed my efforts and just kept going.

[redefined_cycles]

You got a link to the above app/book you mention please? Ta..

https://www.wob.com/en-gb/books/biju-th ... R005873202

Thanks Taylor

[whitestone]

Well I have finally got a copy, thanks for the earlier recommendation. It's got some great recipes in it that I look forward to trying out.

The science behind it is very interesting and the intro section talks about when you need to eat for fuel and not. One of the reasons for getting it was to science up my nutrition for this years events. I've spent the last six months pretty much recording every data metric possible about myself and using these to help predict performance, energy requirements etc. I'm trying to find data on energy consumption for long distance events and have struggled to find much online. Most of the data out there is for flat events or road climbing/ultra running and I'm after long distance on/off road BB200 type courses data. Does anybody have any they could share ideally calorific consumption, power output etc? No idea if anybody has done a BB type thing with a power meter even.

Ideally I'd like to try to make a realistic plan for my YD300/BB200 attempts this year using predicted courses and my own performance data to work out my predicted calorific requirements, so I can plan it accordingly. I've spent a lot of time on fitness prep this year and the expense of time on the bike, so I am trying to do everything I can do to help myself complete them.

Many thanks in advance

Power meters are much better suited to steady(ish) state efforts as with road cycling but some data can be gleaned from MTB activities but these often tend to be long sustained efforts as well. If you've got hike-a-bike then the power data will show zero whilst you are struggling through whatever.

Generally just keep stuffing your face. You can get a timer app for the later Garmin devices that will beep at you every X minutes to tell you to eat/drink/do the hokey-cokey. The calculations are pretty simple: you need to move mass (you plus your bike) a set distance. That takes a given amount of energy (in Joules) which because of the inefficiency of the human body works out at the same number of calories (small 'c'). But you've a massive store of energy in reserve, even someone as skinny as Chris Froome has apparently enough to do four marathons so goodness knows what "normal" people have, so you can afford to be (quite) a bit under that figure.

The point is that you don't need to replace *all expended energy* during the event, you just have to eat enough that you don't deplete your glycogen reserves and thus bonk. That's better done by ensuring you keep below your anaerobic threshold, if you can chat whilst riding then you are doing it right. You still have to eat as your body will look for the easiest source of energy.

The other thing is eating sufficiently before an effort like a big hill - food isn't instantly available to the body, you might need to start eating fifteen minutes before the climb depending on what you are eating: sugars get into the system quickly, fats much more slowly with carbs like bread pretty much in the middle.

[Johnallan]

My completely non-scientific method is something like a clif bar/flapjack every hour, then a meal-deal/pasty/more substantial grub every 4ish hours, which is usually when I need to refill a couple of bottles. I've never used a HR monitor or power meter, but manage to complete most rides without getting into any real trouble.

However, I've absolutely no interest in data metrics for riding bikes, so I expect my findings to be no use to you whatsoever

[dlovett]

Duncan. I usually measure my calories out on the mtb and road bike. Only problem is (like you said) the mtb is only with the heart rate monitor (the Polar one mind, they're meant to be the best, so at least HR nimbers are accurate enough) but the road bike is with both dual sided PM and the HRM chest strap on.

Sounds to me like you could do with investing in a smart training watch (like the Suunto something 9) and get yourself a sub with ICU intervals (what Bob recommended) and it works really well. Helps me not overtrain and get a nice idea of when to taper off to ensure I'm fully ready for the big day/days.

You got a link to the above app/book you mention please? Ta..

Here is where I got it from, used but I couldn’t tell it’s not brand new.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Book ... eed%2Bzone

[dlovett]

I have a Fenix and a Garmin hr-pro heart rate monitor which is paired with cadence sensors outdoor and full power meter etc indoors so I am getting numbers which over the last six months have become reasonably accurate cal wise. I just want to take the data to the next level as much as possible to give me as much information to make the right decisions on nutrition.

Duncan. I usually measure my calories out on the mtb and road bike. Only problem is (like you said) the mtb is only with the heart rate monitor (the Polar one mind, they're meant to be the best, so at least HR nimbers are accurate enough) but the road bike is with both dual sided PM and the HRM chest strap on.

Sounds to me like you could do with investing in a smart training watch (like the Suunto something 9) and get yourself a sub with ICU intervals (what Bob recommended) and it works really well. Helps me not overtrain and get a nice idea of when to taper off to ensure I'm fully ready for the big day/days.

You got a link to the above app/book you mention please? Ta..

[dlovett]

That’s the approach I have taken before and it’s never worked very well for me. I tend to carry a mix that adds up to the bare min I might need and supplement it with whatever I can find. The issue I have is I seem to struggle to eat while on the go and don’t tend to get on very well with liquid Cals.

Ideally I'd like to try to make a realistic plan for my YD300/BB200 attempts this year using predicted courses and my own performance data to work out my predicted calorific requirements, so I can plan it accordingly

Based on my completely stuffing up my feeding at BB200 last year you are possibly over thinking things as I still managed to plod round sub 24 and I'm not fit nor trained

As I understand things you need to balance what when and how much you eat. Also do you carry it or rely on food stops and then be clear on what you are buying and it needs to be palatable especially when tired

My experience was that I was essentially staving off the bonk for a good half the ride with a few jelly babies and the emergency chocolate covered Kendal mint cake which I nibbled. I managed my efforts and just kept going.

[dlovett]

I know it’s impossible to produce exact numbers as you pint out I won’t know where hike a bike bits are even if I know what I consider when carrying bike up hills. I can estimate to perhaps within 10-25% accuracy the overall requirements from the routing and equations etc, but I just want to make that accurate as possible. I normally carry a mix of fast to slower release foods as you mention, enough to cover the bare mins and pick up where I can, extra, but I tend to struggle to take on food while on the go. The last lot of sums give me a radius of about 2 hours unfed at my current rates and at an average power output I would need to take on perhapsn250-300 cals per hour. But all that is based on much shorter rides not the 24 hour plus mark.


quote=whitestone post_id=309636 time=1686319552 user_id=3763]

Well I have finally got a copy, thanks for the earlier recommendation. It's got some great recipes in it that I look forward to trying out.

The science behind it is very interesting and the intro section talks about when you need to eat for fuel and not. One of the reasons for getting it was to science up my nutrition for this years events. I've spent the last six months pretty much recording every data metric possible about myself and using these to help predict performance, energy requirements etc. I'm trying to find data on energy consumption for long distance events and have struggled to find much online. Most of the data out there is for flat events or road climbing/ultra running and I'm after long distance on/off road BB200 type courses data. Does anybody have any they could share ideally calorific consumption, power output etc? No idea if anybody has done a BB type thing with a power meter even.

Ideally I'd like to try to make a realistic plan for my YD300/BB200 attempts this year using predicted courses and my own performance data to work out my predicted calorific requirements, so I can plan it accordingly. I've spent a lot of time on fitness prep this year and the expense of time on the bike, so I am trying to do everything I can do to help myself complete them.

Many thanks in advance

Power meters are much better suited to steady(ish) state efforts as with road cycling but some data can be gleaned from MTB activities but these often tend to be long sustained efforts as well. If you've got hike-a-bike then the power data will show zero whilst you are struggling through whatever.

Generally just keep stuffing your face. You can get a timer app for the later Garmin devices that will beep at you every X minutes to tell you to eat/drink/do the hokey-cokey. The calculations are pretty simple: you need to move mass (you plus your bike) a set distance. That takes a given amount of energy (in Joules) which because of the inefficiency of the human body works out at the same number of calories (small 'c'). But you've a massive store of energy in reserve, even someone as skinny as Chris Froome has apparently enough to do four marathons so goodness knows what "normal" people have, so you can afford to be (quite) a bit under that figure.

The point is that you don't need to replace *all expended energy* during the event, you just have to eat enough that you don't deplete your glycogen reserves and thus bonk. That's better done by ensuring you keep below your anaerobic threshold, if you can chat whilst riding then you are doing it right. You still have to eat as your body will look for the easiest source of energy.

The other thing is eating sufficiently before an effort like a big hill - food isn't instantly available to the body, you might need to start eating fifteen minutes before the climb depending on what you are eating: sugars get into the system quickly, fats much more slowly with carbs like bread pretty much in the middle.
[/quote]

[whitestone]

The issue I have is I seem to struggle to eat while on the go and don’t tend to get on very well with liquid Cals.

This sentence tends to suggest that you aren't drinking enough. Your gut needs some fluids to be able to take the food from the stomach and into the intestines. Not drinking enough leads to a feeling that the food is just "sitting" in your stomach and a bloated like feeling.

[dlovett]

The issue I have is I seem to struggle to eat while on the go and don’t tend to get on very well with liquid Cals.

This sentence tends to suggest that you aren't drinking enough. Your gut needs some fluids to be able to take the food from the stomach and into the intestines. Not drinking enough leads to a feeling that the food is just "sitting" in your stomach and a bloated like feeling.

I seem to have quite a high salt content to my sweat and so in the past I haven’t been drinking enough and certainly haven’t been replacing the sodium I’ve been loosing, which as you say is the issue with not being able to take on food that well. I am now running what seems to be the correct salt levels in my water and it’s been much better. Tomorrow is due to be pretty hot down here and I have a fast ride planned which will be a good test of how well dialled in my hydration plan is. Big shout out to Precision Fuel & Hydration team for their advice on salt, sweat and hydration.

https://www.precisionhydration.com/

[riderdown]

and at an average power output I would need to take on perhapsn250-300 cals per hour

My Garmin data said I was burning just under 500 kcal per hour on BB200, I suspect some of that was the effort of lifting the bike over those windfarm gates

[dlovett]

and at an average power output I would need to take on perhapsn250-300 cals per hour

My Garmin data said I was burning just under 500 kcal per hour on BB200, I suspect some of that was the effort of lifting the bike over those windfarm gates

Thanks that’s the kind of number range I was imaging it would be. Trying to take on even 50% of that could be challenging. Better hope there’s a macca’s enroute!!

[riderdown]

Better hope there’s a macca’s enroute!

I did a spar meal deal, some poor garage dive choices and a couple of dehydrated meals.

Rest was snacks

As I said. Pretty poor for a BB event.

[mskinner]

and at an average power output I would need to take on perhapsn250-300 cals per hour

My Garmin data said I was burning just under 500 kcal per hour on BB200, I suspect some of that was the effort of lifting the bike over those windfarm gates

Thanks that’s the kind of number range I was imaging it would be. Trying to take on even 50% of that could be challenging. Better hope there’s a macca’s enroute!!

Hi Duncan I have a garmin Fenix 5x pro over on the buy sell forum for 100ish inc postage I had the data fields set up to show the calories for the activity, this allows me eat as needed and helps balance the intake as I really feel it if I don’t keep up with what I am burning.

[dlovett]

Tbh i have never had the cals consumed on the Fenix/edge’s data screens. Will give it a try.

I did a nice gentle ride today in the heat to see how the hydration plan worked. I had two 450ml bottles with skratch labs pineapple and 1.4l of normal water. The skratch labs powder has a high than normal salt content and it really seems to suit me. I drank the first bottle with approx 400ml of normal water by the half way point and the same during the second half. It was an average temp of 27c and despite sweating I felt fine. No headaches or anything like I normally get when I exercise if in hot weather. I also managed to eat a sandwich and ice cream at the half way point which is something I struggle to do normally. I went at approx 75% of max pace until the halfway point and then at 50% for 20 mins after the restart to allow the food to go down then back up to 75% and there were no issues. Yes it was only 60km on road/light gravel but I got a new personal best on the 40km and felt really good and fresh at the end. I know I can’t say the skratch labs did it all as I have really been working on my fitness the last six months but I have the reverse to ride tomorrow and the forecast is due to be slightly hotter so have more skratch to drink on the way home, so I will see how that goes, but it’s left me feeling confident that the higher salt content is what I have always been missing.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Just a thought considering the bigger picture with regard to ITT / endurance ... I think we sometimes find ourselves drawn into a 'numbers game' with regard to training / nutrition etc. Trouble is, even if you follow that stuff to the letter, it'll often only get you so far. The 'mental game' will play a massive (and on occasion overlooked) part in determining whether or not you achieve your goal. Someone could be the fittest, best fed and watered rider out there but if they lack fortitude / determination / bloody mindedness / pick one, then all the training / planning / nutrition in the world is unlikely to be enough to see them through.

[riderdown]

Someone could be the fittest, best fed and watered rider out there but if they lack fortitude / determination / bloody mindedness / pick one, then all the training / planning / nutrition in the world is unlikely to be enough to see them through.

This

At BB200 a planned hot drink and feed turned into a bit of a nightmare as the little meths stove kept going out when the water was placed on it. Thought about bedding down but the spot was cold, windy, and very noisy due to the wind farm. So scrabbled about for the emergency chocolate covered Kendal mint cake and started the push up the hill into the darkness. Really enjoyed the liftathon getting over the gates through the windfarm........

You can keep going if you don't go into the red, it's just very slow, but you get there in the end

Probably over half the finishers were already asleep in the car park at the finish when I was enjoying this

[dlovett]

Just a thought considering the bigger picture with regard to ITT / endurance ... I think we sometimes find ourselves drawn into a 'numbers game' with regard to training / nutrition etc. Trouble is, even if you follow that stuff to the letter, it'll often only get you so far. The 'mental game' will play a massive (and on occasion overlooked) part in determining whether or not you achieve your goal. Someone could be the fittest, best fed and watered rider out there but if they lack fortitude / determination / bloody mindedness / pick one, then all the training / planning / nutrition in the world is unlikely to be enough to see them through.

I totally agree with you there, all the previous ones I have taken part in, have been fuelled by pure bloody mindedness to succeed and competitiveness with other participants. I recall one YD200 where I had persuaded Freckers to ride it with me and as we hit the last km or so we both ended up in a full on out the saddle sprint to the line, (She beat me by half a bike length and it's still sore!). I'm sure I still have those covered, as whenever I am out riding or running and see another, the instinct to hunt them down and pass them instantly takes over. I just want to add fitness, science and equipment tech to my arsenal for the next few event to see if that can give me more of the complete package when competing in them.

My biggest achilles heel currently is the lack of recent long distance riding time in the saddle and the fact that my butt area, isn't currently that toughened up, which I guess only time on a saddle will help. That should be sorted for this years BB's but the YD300 is going to be very uncomfortable I suspect after about 100km's.

[dlovett]

Someone could be the fittest, best fed and watered rider out there but if they lack fortitude / determination / bloody mindedness / pick one, then all the training / planning / nutrition in the world is unlikely to be enough to see them through.

This

At BB200 a planned hot drink and feed turned into a bit of a nightmare as the little meths stove kept going out when the water was placed on it. Thought about bedding down but the spot was cold, windy, and very noisy due to the wind farm. So scrabbled about for the emergency chocolate covered Kendal mint cake and started the push up the hill into the darkness. Really enjoyed the liftathon getting over the gates through the windfarm........

You can keep going if you don't go into the red, it's just very slow, but you get there in the end

Probably over half the finishers were already asleep in the car park at the finish when I was enjoying this

I totally get that, but this year I want to be on of the snoozers!!