Route ethics

[voodoo_simon]

Picture the scene

One person plans their own route, rides it and then publishes* it but
a) they publish it with a charge and you receive a GPX route
b) to go along with the promotional stuff, they use a drawn map of the route

Next person comes along, and read loses the hand drawn map gives just enough detail to be able to copy the route

Is this poor form or just the way it is for routes?

What happens if one person pays but then takes loads of mates along or they upload their ride to Strava for people to see

*not related to the newly published bear ones routes I’m hasten to add

[whitestone]

Any route on *public* RoWs is public almost by definition, once it's out there... Someone not associated with the "event" could have ridden that exact same route prior to the "event".

With the BB200/300 now having two dates Stu asks that those doing the ride on the first date don't publish their activities on Strava, etc. until after the second date. In fact he asks that we don't discuss specifics about the route during that period.

It's possible this is one reason Alan Goldsmith changes the route of the HT550 slightly each year.

I'd also say that riders shouldn't take the proverbial with routes associated with charity events when they are using them for fund raising.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I take the view that every route already exists, it just requires someone to join the dots, although doing so doesn't give you any ownership over it (but it is nice if credit is given where it's due).

If people want to make money from their routes, then maybe hosting an event or writing a proper guidebook is the way to go? - although you can't stop person a from sharing with person b to z.

[riderdown]

Unless the route designer has a USP they need to accept that they can't control public access to public space and something shared becomes public domain quickly

I'm planning a route, it might be quite good, I'll put some time and effort into into it, I'll make sure it's ridden rather than assumed, I won't expect anything back.

The corollary to the question you pose is that someone might be cheeky at a later date and put my freely shared route in a book or a paid for app but I'll never see anything for it.

If I'm bothered about that I shouldn't share the route in the first place

[psling]

I take the view that every route already exists, it just requires someone to join the dots, although doing so doesn't give you any ownership over it (but it is nice if credit is given where it's due).

Fully agree with Stu. If someone sells a gpx they're not selling the route, they're selling the time and effort they've put into producing and marketing the gpx and anyone buying that gpx is probably doing so because they don't want to put in the time and effort themselves.

Route information has always been out there whether it is by word of mouth, books, magazine articles or, nowadays, the internet. For me, such resources are the inspiration for creating my own routes; I have not yet followed a line of dots on a screen attached to my bike.

[Dave Barter]

I’ve had routes from my guide book appear verbatim in other published guide books. I consider it flattery. Can’t say that all of mine are 100% original as many of them were inspired by others. I always try to acknowledge that. For me it’s the dishonesty of pretending you invented it that galls.

[psling]

The corollary to the question you pose is that someone might be cheeky at a later date and put my freely shared route in a book or a paid for app but I'll never see anything for it.

Didn't Dave B recently comment that someone had copied word for word a route from one of his books and publish it without acknowledgement?

[psling]

Ha ha! I wasn't thinking that bloody recently

[Lazarus]

My ethics are
1. was it for a charitable cause - I donate to the cause if so- calder divide is one I will get round to riding and donate
2. Was it commercial- i just ride the route
3. Dont think i would "steal" a route but i would use it for inspiration

As noted you cannot really control the GPX once its out there and it inevitable its going to be "stolen"

Doing so for a book is a proper piss take and should be called out.

[Dave Barter]

The corollary to the question you pose is that someone might be cheeky at a later date and put my freely shared route in a book or a paid for app but I'll never see anything for it.

Didn't Dave B recently comment that someone had copied word for word a route from one of his books and publish it without acknowledgement?

Point for point, they changed the words

[boxelder]

What happens if one person pays but then takes loads of mates along or they upload their ride to Strava for people to see

If I buy an album, I can let my mates listen to it, or lend them a book I bought. I can learn to play the songs or quote passages. It wouldn't be right to pass it off as my own creative work though, or to earn money or other advantage from it and I could be prosecuted.

[voodoo_simon]

The above confirms what I was thinking! Don’t think I’ll be in the position to ever publish someone else’s routes and take the credit for them

You’re right Lazarus, if it was a charity route and designed for such, then I’d hit the donate button.

[redefined_cycles]

The CVMBC (Colne Valley mtb Challenge) which riases money for scouts and their local cricket club (Golcar) used to have people trying to ride the route other than event day. Jonny (the organiser, excellent organising btw and mashalling second to none across the entire route) eventually got fed up with people riding the route other than event day (I'll explain) and now has a full explanation why people shouldn't try and practice the route.

Significant parts of it (which lead to some most excellent riding but on a normal day are not a RoW at the end - so an out and back only) are private land which he'd chase the land owners permission for beforehand. They must've got sick of people trying to ride thorugh their (not right of way) land in other years. One such section - a really steep and scary section which you'd ride or walk up and then hope to God you didn't break the face on the DH - which isn't a path or RoW, the farmer must've eventually gotten so sick of it that he's now raised it all to the ground!! People would try and use it by cutting the barbed wire and various sorts of fence over the years.

Alternately, the Bronte Challenge (excellent ride, I'd suggest you enter the Heathcliffee) which goes over a significant selection of The Moors up near Ogden and beyond, raises for the hospice (Sue Ryder) and they've already published the 3 routes despite anyone even entering. I'm hoping to ride both today but both paid entries and will do the riding on the day.

Maybe a bit off topic, but my few pennies

[jameso]

For me it’s the dishonesty of pretending you invented it that galls.

Yeah, they should have credited you like they should for image use. Always credit sources. It's good to credit simple influences too, creativity is always inspired by something.

I wonder if creative commons licences can apply to a route that has had genuine creative input or problem solving applied to it, to show it's a creative work and support crediting when used elsewhere. Don't know, just a thought.

We can't trademark a route but you can create something similar around it, name it and see if it sticks. I expect that's easier if the route has significant features or takes a good line though somewhere that has real appeal. Early route creators in an area probably have it easier. The more recognition a route gets the less it's going to be passed off I expect. But I don't think that can apply as easily to a guidebook where the routes can all be excellent yet it's more likely it's the book title that gets the recognition.

[pistonbroke]

Seems to be happening a lot. There's an event that covers the 450km from Barcelona to Valencia that a couple of friends have developed loosely following a Roman road called the Via Augusta. A couple of weeks ago one of them was asked on social media for the gpx for this year's event which he innocently passed on. A couple of days ago a commercial organisation that runs road sportives attracting thousands of participants announced a gravel sportive along exactly this route, scheduled to take place 2 weeks before the original. My mate traced the guy requesting the gpx via Facebook and turns out he's the organiser. How's that for bare faced cheek. He's saved hundreds of man hours recceing the route to check it's suitability and will use his big following to make a lot of money for doing nothing. The same company La Mussara Cycling were recently sued for calling their events Gran Fondo, a trademark that already exited.

[voodoo_simon]

^^^
That’s poor form, bit of a dick move to that

[pistonbroke]

To cap it all, the original event is called Gravel Augusta, the nicked copycat is called Via Augusta Gravel.

[voodoo_simon]

To cap it all, the original event is called Gravel Augusta, the nicked copycat is called Via Augusta Gravel.

The organisers clearly need some trolling over that!

[riderdown]

A couple of days ago a commercial organisation that runs road sportives attracting thousands of participants announced a gravel sportive along exactly this route, scheduled to take place 2 weeks before the original. My mate traced the guy requesting the gpx via Facebook and turns out he's the organiser. How's that for bare faced cheek. He's saved hundreds of man hours recceing

I was similarly done in the UK, pre GPX days but lots of free time and expertise including event day, the promised support (cash) for the grass roots event series never materialised, bunch of shysters the lot of them