Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

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fatbikephil
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by fatbikephil »

Bearbonesnorm wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:37 pm
there is definitely a feeling up here that our access rights are not set in stone and could well be subject to change for the worse...
If they ever were lost Phil, would it stop you doing what you do?

I know it might appear as though I'm not particularly bothered by this but rest assured I am but I'm also pragmatic. Mr Hedge fund is quite obviously just a tw@t but I do wonder whether the outcome of this case was in any way swayed by the bad press of the last few years surrounding fly camping which as we know was often simply reported as 'wild camping'.?
Nope, and this is a point lost on Landowners in Scotland - there is no law of trespass so eff all they can do other than shout at you. But I've got a whole range of ways of dealing with that!

The problem is what Dave and others have said - people lacking in confidence or just wanting a nice easy time without upsetting anybody are the ones who suffer. the bawbags keep doing what they were doing (with impunity largely) and people like us with a bit of nous, but the people to whom it matters the most suffer.

Plus, in a way, mister tw@ty has well and truly blown it - prior to this, people just quietly camped on Dartmoor knowing they were in their rights, more or less. This would have had hee haw effect on his tw@tnesses ground or animal slaughtering operations. Now it's all over the national press, loads of people will be heading up there to see what all the fuss is about and doing 'protest' camps, causing him much more grief.

If he'd adopted a pragmatic approach of ignoring the responsible campers and getting his paid heavies to move on the neds, he'd resolve any problems of antisocial behaviour. Instead, and like all of these idiots, he reached for his lawyer and made a huge PR gaff of it all.
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whitestone
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by whitestone »

That'd be similar to the Barbra Streisand Effect :lol:
How long is it going to take before lawyers realize that the simple act of trying to repress something they don't like online is likely to make it so that something that most people would never, ever see (like a photo of a urinal in some random beach resort) is now seen by many more people? Let's call it the Streisand Effect
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by riderdown »

Interesting that access is all geared around being on foot or by horse and bikes are prohibited in many places.
I think it's because cycles are deemed to be vehicles and then get caught by restrictions for motorised transport. EBikes make arguing for change harder.
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by godivatrailrider »

Having read the fabulous Book if Tresspass I discovered the group Right to Roam … let’s say they’re not happy about yesterdays ruling …. I received this today
“Right to Roam Goes To War

Hello,

Nope.

Absolutely not.

Today the High Court ruled in favour of abolishing our right to wild camp on Dartmoor – Dartmoor was the only place in England where it was legal.

Alexander Darwall, a multimillionaire estate owner based in south Dartmoor has used his wealth to remove a right enjoyed by us all: contesting a byelaw from the 1980s which simply acknowledged the long established practice of sleeping under the stars in the National Park.
This is a very real example of how, if we don’t fight for our right to access nature, it will be stripped away.

Darwall is just another in a long line of powerful landowners who use their arbitrary ownership of the land to exclude us, the public, from the countryside.

Right to Roam is launching a full fight back against this outrageous decision.

The Right to Roam is more than walking. Our right to belong in the countryside is our right to forge a deep connection with nature and land. Wild camping is pitching a tent when your body is tired and allowing the landscape to hold you where you belong, it's learning about yourself and nature and it's being inspired by looking up at the cosmos like we have done for millennia. Losing the last place to freely camp in England is significant and this ruling is a reminder of why we fight.

We will not back down. We will not let Darwall’s entitled, misanthropic behaviour destroy the only remaining scrap of land where we are permitted to sleep freely under the sky.

We’re going to war. And we need your help.

First, DONATE TO THE RIGHT TO ROAM WAR CHEST: [Donate here]

We’re up against some of the richest people in the country and we need all the resources we can to take them down.

You’ll be contributing not just to defending our right to camp on Dartmoor but our campaign to access nature freely and responsibly across all of England.

Second, JOIN US IN DARTMOOR ON JANUARY 21ST for the first of many acts of defiance against this assault on our freedom: [Book here]

We’ll be marching on Mr Darwall’s land to raise the spirit of Old Crockern, the ancient protector of Dartmoor who rises when the moor is threatened, and when greed abounds! The event is free, but it's good to get an idea on numbers, so follow the link above to register.

Love and solidarity,
Joy to the stars,

Nadia and Jon and the Right To Roam Team xxx
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godivatrailrider
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by godivatrailrider »

Same twonk also owns the Sutherland estate in Scotland and I believe another in Dartmoor ….
riderdown
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by riderdown »

Same twonk also owns the Sutherland estate in Scotland and I believe another in Dartmoor ….
It's in part an inheritance tax dodge, it's not levied on agricultural land.

Plenty of HNW individuals do the same such as Dyson who is I believe the biggest farmer in England and is well known for green energy subsidy milking
woodsmith
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by woodsmith »

The time for dragging these f#ckers out of their ivory towers and hacking their heads off is long overdue.
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by ericrobo »

This business of the High Court reaching its decisions seems to me to be highly subjective. As with nearly everything we do and accept is subjective… but some of these judgements….deary deary me…

If a judge has no idea what to camp means but understands litter then….deary deary me…

The National Park lawyers are a bloody disgrace to let them get away with this.

“Alexander Darwall, a hedge fund manager and Dartmoor’s sixth-largest landowner, brought the case against the national park, arguing that the right to wild camp on the moors never existed.”

The right to blow your nose on Dartmoor never existed.

I would argue that the right NOT TO CAMP never existed…(under the communists if you were anywhere near Dartmoor you HAD to camp :lol: )

Next thing they’ll be arguing that the right to be on Dartmoor at night never existed.

Sean is spot on: if you sleep in a ditch without a tent you are not camping !!!
I did this many times when I was drunk, and didn’t get home until early morning (technical term : dossing)
His right honourable wouldn’t have a clue what that was. I remember a court case (going back decades this) where the term “pop group” came up, and the right honourable asked “what is a pop group ?

Received email this morning from Right to Roam and I will certainly be sending a donation….(see Godiva Trail Rider’s post)

Urge everyone to do the same :-bd

Sir Julian Flaux, the chancellor of the high court….. deary deary me,

Sir Julian Flaux, the chancellor of the high court, ruled that Darwall’s lawyers were correct and that the right did not exist across Dartmoor. The ruling is effective immediately, and means that Darwall can move people off his land from Friday. “In my judgment, on the first issue set out at [14] above, the claimants are entitled to the declaration they seek that, on its true construction, section 10(1) of the 1985 Act does not confer on the public any right to pitch tents or otherwise make camp overnight on Dartmoor Commons. Any such camping requires the consent of the landowne
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by woodsmith »

ericrobo wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:01 pm
His right honourable wouldn’t have a clue what that was. I remember a court case (going back decades this) where the term “pop group” came up, and the right honourable asked “what is a pop group ?

Received email this morning from Right to Roam and I will certainly be sending a donation….(see Godiva Trail Rider’s post)

Urge everyone to do the same :-bd

Sir Julian Flaux, the chancellor of the high court….. deary deary me,

Sir Julian Flaux, the chancellor of the high court, ruled that Darwall’s lawyers were correct and that the right did not exist across Dartmoor. The ruling is effective immediately, and means that Darwall can move people off his land from Friday. “In my judgment, on the first issue set out at [14] above, the claimants are entitled to the declaration they seek that, on its true construction, section 10(1) of the 1985 Act does not confer on the public any right to pitch tents or otherwise make camp overnight on Dartmoor Commons. Any such camping requires the consent of the landowne
Sir Julian himself perhaps? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VgwxKW0J6I
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by ericrobo »

Brilliant :-bd
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fatbikephil
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by fatbikephil »

:lol:
The 'trucking' song also came up on that link - more hilarity :grin:
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ledburner
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by ledburner »

So do we have to go for a walk (no mechanical transportation),getting lost on a regular basis and have to doss out. But not all go to sleep. Then this is ok...?
'we would have called moorland rescue but we didn't have a phone signal ...and my battery is flat' :lol:
If we do this for 25 year, it reverses the precident?
Volunteers?
I hope you think you know, what I might of exactly meant.
Warning - may contain value odded typos & ither mythspellings..
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by godivatrailrider »

Sir Julian Flaux ( I think the name tells us everything we need to know 😆) also made a ruling on the Begum Isis case re citizenship and has been subsequently overruled… fingers crossed this will be too …
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by fatbikerbill »

In terms of protest I think a mass 'not bivvy night' would be quite fun.

Loads of us turn up, walk past his front door and then wander about at night looking like we're about to camp but never quite doing it.

Perhaps stop for the odd picnic, but by moonlight.
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by RIP »

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/ ... k-14939

"If landowners were so concerned about ecological impact, then they wouldn't rear grouse - but that's another article". As the article points out, the whole feudal plan is riddled with inconsistencies and unintended consequences.... Ten Tors Challenge teaches kids to survive in and respect the place, not the opposite.... a ban will be ignored by the fly-camping brigade anyway... etc etc....

Have bunged me donation in, which also had the happy side effect of finding Mr Shrubsole's "Lost Rainforests Of Britain" book...
Last edited by RIP on Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by redefined_cycles »

godivatrailrider wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:05 pm Sir Julian Flaux ( I think the name tells us everything we need to know 😆) also made a ruling on the Begum Isis case re citizenship and has been subsequently overruled… fingers crossed this will be too …
Sorry to be the odd one out, but I really don't think that's fair. She was a child that was groomed online by these idiots. It was with the assistance of the canadian secret service (and help from british intelligence) that she actually managed to get out of our beautiful country in the first place.

Like I said, sorry to have a differing opinion but theres plenty of evidence out there... Maybe start at this article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... regnant-uk but there's plenty more regards the british secret service and Canada secret service assistance to help her get out to these horrible people :-bd

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... nadian-spy
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by redefined_cycles »

fatbikerbill wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:37 pm In terms of protest I think a mass 'not bivvy night' would be quite fun.

Loads of us turn up, walk past his front door and then wander about at night looking like we're about to camp but never quite doing it.

Perhaps stop for the odd picnic, but by moonlight.
You serious Phil... I'd be up for that. Already a bit 'rogue' in my public opinions anyway :grin:
woodsmith
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by woodsmith »

What actually constitutes "camping" in the eyes of the law. Does putting up a tent to shelter from the sun, wind or rain count if you're not actually sleeping? Is a a bivy bag camping? Is a tarp? How long does the period of sleep need to be to qualify?

A coupe of hundred people all putting up various shelters and then standing around chatting all day/night should wind the land owner up nicely.
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by Lazarus »

Aim big massive marquee and all night rave ....no sleep for anyone so presumably legal

Used to do them in North Wales as they only had 50 coppers total so on a weekend the most they could muster was about double figures . Bet rural Devon is not a lot different
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by redefined_cycles »

woodsmith wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:57 am What actually constitutes "camping" in the eyes of the law. Does putting up a tent to shelter from the sun, wind or rain count if you're not actually sleeping? Is a a bivy bag camping? Is a tarp? How long does the period of sleep need to be to qualify?

A coupe of hundred people all putting up various shelters and then standing around chatting all day/night should wind the land owner up nicely.
Reg once taught us (I believe) that stopping on the path-side to rest tired eyes is legal. So if we go tired and no longer able to go on then... bivy?
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by Lazarus »

Injured person unable to move so it's a medical emergency and we need to keep them warm / sheltered.
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

May the bridges you burn light your way
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by Bearlegged »

woodsmith
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by woodsmith »

Bearlegged wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:28 pm Follow the money...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... y-mangnall
Move along.there's nothing (new) to see here......just the usual old-boy network, back-room deals, backhanders, and bare-faced corruption.
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Re: Never legal to wildcamp on Dartmoor?

Post by RIP »

A cracking summary of the tangled lunacy over "what is camping anyway", had forgotten about that one! As you also said, most Normals seem to think the time of day makes a difference when plainly it doesn't. You could argue it's not even "dark" at "night" - the golden orb is still shining away quite happily 93 million miles overhead (*) 24 hours a day :grin: .

(*) or indeed underhead. Like night/dark, it all depends on your perspective....
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