Bearfoot cycling shoes: such a thing?

[Cheeky Monkey]

Another nice exercise for shoulders / core / lateral core are bird dogs. I'm not a great fan of sit-ups. HYOH

[thenorthwind]

Cheers Dave. The problem is that I know what the solution is - I've even paid a physio to tell me on the odd occasion - but making myself do it is another matter. I've managed to stick to various routines of yoga/stretching/HIIT, but it always falls by the wayside eventually. So I guess the problem is as much my brain as my glutes

I went through this Dave and the physio suggested signing up to a Pilates class as you're more likely to keep going if you've shelled out. Also having a trained person shouting at you helps to keep motivated - the instructor in my class knows I do stupid things on bikes so makes sure I don't cop out with the easy options on any routine. Sorted my dodgy back out and helped immeasurably to sort knee pain out as well although I got some specific physio on this too. Has also given me a solid six pack although no one notices except me....

Good point Phil. I did used to go to a yoga class once a week, which was good in some ways, but ate an evening, and I came to the conclusion I'd be better doing 15 minutes every morning than an hour and a half once a week. I should also maybe look at pilates as an alternative to yoga. How often do you go to the class?

[redefined_cycles]

Another nice exercise for shoulders / core / lateral core are bird dogs. I'm not a great fan of sit-ups. HYOH

Just looked it up thanks. Everytime I've ever tried that exercise it seems to send my back into (mild) spasm so stopped altogether. Maybe once my core is a little stronger I'll try once again

[Cheeky Monkey]

A progression (regression?) is to just lift each arm or leg separately (rather than opposing pairs at same time). It might help build things up before trying to do both at once. But everyone's different so if it doesn't work for you don't force it.

I find a lot of stuff on Greg Brookes website (https://www.gbpersonaltraining.com/why- ... are-tight/ and https://kettlebellsworkouts.com/blog/) pretty useful and mercifully devoid of too much fitness BS and bravado ;-)

[fatbikephil]

Cheers Dave. The problem is that I know what the solution is - I've even paid a physio to tell me on the odd occasion - but making myself do it is another matter. I've managed to stick to various routines of yoga/stretching/HIIT, but it always falls by the wayside eventually. So I guess the problem is as much my brain as my glutes

I went through this Dave and the physio suggested signing up to a Pilates class as you're more likely to keep going if you've shelled out. Also having a trained person shouting at you helps to keep motivated - the instructor in my class knows I do stupid things on bikes so makes sure I don't cop out with the easy options on any routine. Sorted my dodgy back out and helped immeasurably to sort knee pain out as well although I got some specific physio on this too. Has also given me a solid six pack although no one notices except me....

Good point Phil. I did used to go to a yoga class once a week, which was good in some ways, but ate an evening, and I came to the conclusion I'd be better doing 15 minutes every morning than an hour and a half once a week. I should also maybe look at pilates as an alternative to yoga. How often do you go to the class?

An hour a week Dave - its a Monday so generally my rest day after the weekend's labours (!) very local so not much extra time needed to get there and back outwith the hour sesh. Pilates is a bit more intensive than yoga although that depends on the class.

[Specialist Hoprocker]

Hi Shaf, I've been using barefoot shoes on and off for the last decade. Love them. Ditched the spd a few years back too. Closest thing I've found for cycling is the older Five Tens that used to be mega wide and roomy. Zero drop from what I can tell too. Bugger all proprioception due to the thickness of the sole but considering the size of the pins on my V12s I consider that a benefit!

[Hamish]

I have really smooth flat pedals on my Tern GSD which I use for a lot of my ‘utility’ riding about. In the summer I often ride it barefoot (yes I know that’s stupid). It is generally quite comfortable but after a while (30 milesish) my arches do begin to ache as do my calves from time to time.

If you read Travels with Rosinante (recommended https://joecruz.wordpress.com/2010/02/2 ... rosinante/ ) . Bernard Magnouloux’s shoes wore out. Instead of replacing them he wrapped smooth metal from a tin can around the pedals and carried on barefoot.

Sorry Shaf, this post isn’t very useful.

[thenorthwind]

Cheers Dave. The problem is that I know what the solution is - I've even paid a physio to tell me on the odd occasion - but making myself do it is another matter. I've managed to stick to various routines of yoga/stretching/HIIT, but it always falls by the wayside eventually. So I guess the problem is as much my brain as my glutes

I went through this Dave and the physio suggested signing up to a Pilates class as you're more likely to keep going if you've shelled out. Also having a trained person shouting at you helps to keep motivated - the instructor in my class knows I do stupid things on bikes so makes sure I don't cop out with the easy options on any routine. Sorted my dodgy back out and helped immeasurably to sort knee pain out as well although I got some specific physio on this too. Has also given me a solid six pack although no one notices except me....

Good point Phil. I did used to go to a yoga class once a week, which was good in some ways, but ate an evening, and I came to the conclusion I'd be better doing 15 minutes every morning than an hour and a half once a week. I should also maybe look at pilates as an alternative to yoga. How often do you go to the class?

An hour a week Dave - its a Monday so generally my rest day after the weekend's labours (!) very local so not much extra time needed to get there and back outwith the hour sesh. Pilates is a bit more intensive than yoga although that depends on the class.

Sounds like it's working for you anyway! Had a look at some local classes. Closest one is a dedicated pilates studio, looks great, but £20 for a 50 minute class I'd definitely go if I'd committed that much, but I'd probably put my back out thinking about it, tight Yorkshireman that I am. The yoga class I used to go to is even closer and still a fiver for an hour an a half session (which is probably abnormally cheap, I think the lady does it just the fun really). Tried a couple of pilates videos on YouTube earlier - can see how it might work for me as a bit more intense than yoga, but not quite as brutal as a lot of HIIT stuff. I know that's sidestepping your point about classes, but it's got me think about getting back into it, so cheers. Sorry for the thread tangent Shaf!

[redefined_cycles]

I have really smooth flat pedals on my Tern GSD which I use for a lot of my ‘utility’ riding about. In the summer I often ride it barefoot (yes I know that’s stupid). It is generally quite comfortable but after a while (30 milesish) my arches do begin to ache as do my calves from time to time.

If you read Travels with Rosinante (recommended https://joecruz.wordpress.com/2010/02/2 ... rosinante/ ) . Bernard Magnouloux’s shoes wore out. Instead of replacing them he wrapped smooth metal from a tin can around the pedals and carried on barefoot.

Sorry Shaf, this post isn’t very useful.

Actually it's extremely very useful thanks Hamish. When I started reading this I thought 'I knew we'd find some proper butter who's actually been riding properly bear-foot just like the author or my book has been running. Just about to go for a run but can't bring myself to take the flat tennis shoes with minimal cushioning

Anyway, I think I'm almost convinced that proper flatties are probably the way forward for me. Thanks for the book recommendations aswell

[fatbikephil]

Sounds like it's working for you anyway! Had a look at some local classes. Closest one is a dedicated pilates studio, looks great, but £20 for a 50 minute class I'd definitely go if I'd committed that much, but I'd probably put my back out thinking about it, tight Yorkshireman that I am. The yoga class I used to go to is even closer and still a fiver for an hour an a half session (which is probably abnormally cheap, I think the lady does it just the fun really). Tried a couple of pilates videos on YouTube earlier - can see how it might work for me as a bit more intense than yoga, but not quite as brutal as a lot of HIIT stuff. I know that's sidestepping your point about classes, but it's got me think about getting back into it, so cheers. Sorry for the thread tangent Shaf!

Ouch - I pay £8 used to be an hour but currently 45 mins as they need extra cleaning time so it will probably go up next block - at a commercial studio and seems to be the going rate hereabouts.

[Alpinum]

Loads of great advice on here
Got to love those exercises you can basically do whenever and wherever you are.

Not sure if it has been discussed already - stretching.
When my knees were bad the specialist took a closer look and some time to evaluate my situation and saw that I stretch badly. I knew of the importance of eg the sartorius for the knee and thought I was stretching it well, but turns out my upper body wasn't straight enough, especially not when tired after an intensive ride. If you stretch, make sure to do it correctly. Yet again, some need lots of stretching, others don't...

I too read born to run and had already been on minimalist shoes for hiking, running and everyday life for some years and found the book to align well with my experience. But I can't recall how I thought long about adopting what the book was about to cycling. Cross over is rather limited afaik.

For myself I see three major points in minimalist shoes:
1. Zero heel drop
2. Wide foot box to allow the toes to spread when rolling your feet.
3. Sole as thin as possible and as protective as necessary.

Despite quite enjoying long HAB I don't care much about the heel drop when on a bike trip and riding flat pedals, even less so when clipped in (since in latter case I'm not HABing much in the first place).
Same with toe spread. I don't roll my feet when pedalling and thus don't need quite the volume I do when walking/running but prefer an solid connection with the pedal, that said, my go to mtb shoe (Five Ten Trailcross) could do with a slightly wider foot box.
As for the last point I feel much more comfy on a slightly more rigid sole when riding with lots of HAB and prefer an even more rigid sole for riding clipped in. Also rock strikes etc. may cause less injury with more protective shoes.
I find the Trailcross is a good compromise of the above for riding flats.

Then there's everyday life.
ZAQQ makes some decent minimalist shoes, as do LEM, Merrell and many other brands. I too use Xero sandals once spring has arrived. Their thin version lets your foot to awkwardly wrap (or should I say warp) around the pedal when ssp uphill. Bit uncomfy but doable for a couple of hours.
ZAQQ soles are extremely soft and rather thin, just like eg Merrell Trail Glove, so same/similar pedal warping feet here.
ZAQQ is made in Germany, I guess that's another bonus (not just) for you Shaf.

Like many others, I don't see any benefit riding in minimalist shoes.

Completely different story when walking/hiking/running.
But also here I find there are limits. The former Altra Lone Peak 4 came with a hugely wide foot box. All well and good for walking, but for trail running or hill walking there's a lack of feel and I tend to move around in the front with loss of feel for the ground. Altra King Mountain for trail running and the new Altra Lone Peak 6 with the "regular" fit (rather than "wide") for hiking in rugged terrain are a better fit for me.
The above mentioned Altras are quite different. Tons of cushioning on the Lone Peak, more direct feel on the King MT. Sole is significantly stiffer then eg the Trail Glove sole.

My current spd shoe (for summer months) is a Fiziq Terra Ergolace X2. Foot box has the perfect balance for my toes between wide enough to not feel constricted and tight enough for transferring power. All in all an okay shoe. It would be really, really good if only that fecked up lacing would change. Ergolace, you can piss off! Kind of ruins what could be a great shoe. At least on my feet. I can't tie it down for a snug fit without getting numb areas. Ergofucked up mess it is. Oh... sole is grippy.
Stubborn as I am, I'll probably still use it untill it falls apart, constantly believing it just needs ages to break in

Back to the knees and just for the sake of thoroughness; condition your body. Prepare it and make it ready and capable to hold on and withstand what you intend to do. Some call it training. I'm sure you already do so Shaf.

[Piemonster]

I will scan below exactly what this mathematician PhD type chap

I’d prefer a podiatrist tbh.

Anyway, I went minimalist (I can’t bare to say bare**** then shoes, sorry) a few years back but have actually found I’m happier with a 4mm drop for running. I learnt the hard way that narrow “race fit” shoes don’t actually provide more control/stability so long as your feet are working properly.

I’d also second the flats + Five Tens type approach, but make sure the fit allows plenty of toe room.

And for anyone thinking of the Physio+Pilates route, I thoroughly recommend that too. If your time crunched you can usually find someone that does both, although that also means 1-2-1 instruction which can get pricey. Might want to think about Yoga too if your flexibility sucks. And definitely do your research, some Physios are really not very good at sports physio and seem better suited to post hospitalisation basic rehab work (nothing wrong with that). Rather than some self indulgent middle aged goof ball wanting to ride a bike or run for 24hrs straight.

[gairym]

Not much new to offer except to +1 in a few areas...

+1 for Pilates for core strength, back self-care and overall combating the body getting old and crap.

+1 for minimalist / barefoot (trail running) shoes for riding.

I don't ride clipped in, I hate the big clunky (lack of) feel of five ten shoes, I've never gotten on with stiff soled shoes, I really miss the lack of grip / tread of 'normal' biking shoes (vs trail running shoes) and finally I don't understand why any shoe ever had heel drop etc...

I get the distinction between the cycling vs running impact on the foot but for me I still like every aspect of a nice, light, minimalist flat non-spd trail running shoe for running, everyday and biking use

[redefined_cycles]

Loads of great advice on here
Got to love those exercises you can basically do whenever and wherever you are.

Not sure if it has been discussed already - stretching.
When my knees were bad the specialist took a closer look and some time to evaluate my situation and saw that I stretch badly. I knew of the importance of eg the sartorius for the knee and thought I was stretching it well, but turns out my upper body wasn't straight enough, especially not when tired after an intensive ride. If you stretch, make sure to do it correctly. Yet again, some need lots of stretching, others don't...

I too read born to run and had already been on minimalist shoes for hiking, running and everyday life for some years and found the book to align well with my experience. But I can't recall how I thought long about adopting what the book was about to cycling. Cross over is rather limited afaik.

For myself I see three major points in minimalist shoes:
1. Zero heel drop
2. Wide foot box to allow the toes to spread when rolling your feet.
3. Sole as thin as possible and as protective as necessary.

Despite quite enjoying long HAB I don't care much about the heel drop when on a bike trip and riding flat pedals, even less so when clipped in (since in latter case I'm not HABing much in the first place).
Same with toe spread. I don't roll my feet when pedalling and thus don't need quite the volume I do when walking/running but prefer an solid connection with the pedal, that said, my go to mtb shoe (Five Ten Trailcross) could do with a slightly wider foot box.
As for the last point I feel much more comfy on a slightly more rigid sole when riding with lots of HAB and prefer an even more rigid sole for riding clipped in. Also rock strikes etc. may cause less injury with more protective shoes.
I find the Trailcross is a good compromise of the above for riding flats.

Then there's everyday life.
ZAQQ makes some decent minimalist shoes, as do LEM, Merrell and many other brands. I too use Xero sandals once spring has arrived. Their thin version lets your foot to awkwardly wrap (or should I say warp) around the pedal when ssp uphill. Bit uncomfy but doable for a couple of hours.
ZAQQ soles are extremely soft and rather thin, just like eg Merrell Trail Glove, so same/similar pedal warping feet here.
ZAQQ is made in Germany, I guess that's another bonus (not just) for you Shaf.

Like many others, I don't see any benefit riding in minimalist shoes.

Completely different story when walking/hiking/running.
But also here I find there are limits. The former Altra Lone Peak 4 came with a hugely wide foot box. All well and good for walking, but for trail running or hill walking there's a lack of feel and I tend to move around in the front with loss of feel for the ground. Altra King Mountain for trail running and the new Altra Lone Peak 6 with the "regular" fit (rather than "wide") for hiking in rugged terrain are a better fit for me.
The above mentioned Altras are quite different. Tons of cushioning on the Lone Peak, more direct feel on the King MT. Sole is significantly stiffer then eg the Trail Glove sole.

My current spd shoe (for summer months) is a Fiziq Terra Ergolace X2. Foot box has the perfect balance for my toes between wide enough to not feel constricted and tight enough for transferring power. All in all an okay shoe. It would be really, really good if only that fecked up lacing would change. Ergolace, you can piss off! Kind of ruins what could be a great shoe. At least on my feet. I can't tie it down for a snug fit without getting numb areas. Ergofucked up mess it is. Oh... sole is grippy.
Stubborn as I am, I'll probably still use it untill it falls apart, constantly believing it just needs ages to break in

Back to the knees and just for the sake of thoroughness; condition your body. Prepare it and make it ready and capable to hold on and withstand what you intend to do. Some call it training. I'm sure you already do so Shaf.

Looked at the ZAQQ shoes yesterday thanks Gian. Really good recommendation it seems and I especially love the fact that they look like regular shoes and not China made (no offence to those there that don't condone all the Uigher abuse). I think I was convinced after seeing them already and hoped to buy.

Anyway, today after not being at work for a week I popped on my work shoes. They have a drop from heel to toe that's not that great. They have my special insoles in there that I've always considered to be helping but within an hour of standing on my feet back pain came on. Removed em and walked around the bed space and all pain seemed to go away. Have now removed the insoles and just walking (in)soleless and feeling good

Looks like I'm a convert. Also read a bit more about the issue of the lawsuit against VivoBearfoot in the book and in his opinion he thinks its cos regular runners started using barefoot shoes without any sort of conditioning. Whereas himself and the newer runners who slowly broke themselves in with stuff like 'couch to 5k' seem to have adapted slowly and allowed the muscles to handle it better

Anyway, thanks everyone for your help and I agree I'll not try to do a big mtb ride with barefoot shoes unless I can find some really stiff soled ones (I suppose).

[Senor Charrleh]

I'm not going to go deep into this as most folk have covered a lot already, so i will be brief.. Being an ex veteran i have prawn cracker knees and have had many issues with knee pain, i've also been into the whole barefoot scene for many many years. I've tried loads of different pedals with various float and pedal width and after all that i ended up on revertinbg to platforms and a good normal shoe with a stiff as comfortable sole and i've not had any issues with my knees is quite a while.

[redefined_cycles]

I'm not going to go deep into this as most folk have covered a lot already, so i will be brief.. Being an ex veteran i have prawn cracker knees and have had many issues with knee pain, i've also been into the whole barefoot scene for many many years. I've tried loads of different pedals with various float and pedal width and after all that i ended up on revertinbg to platforms and a good normal shoe with a stiff as comfortable sole and i've not had any issues with my knees is quite a while.

Thanks for that Charleh. Yes I'm slowly making the transition and have noticed a big difference in my back and posture. Can actually put my socks on now standing on one foot without feeling like I'm about to fall over. Looking forward to this