24/04/21 everybody welcome here mass trespass

[techno]

to mark the 89th aniversary of the kinder trespass and highlight the poor state of access in *England and Wales*
right to roam and extinction rebellion are encouraging a mass trespass.
Think i'll have a wheel out somewhere and join in.

https://www.righttoroam.org.uk/everybody-welcome

[ScotRoutes]

to mark the 89th aniversary of the kinder trespass and highlight the poor state of access in ENGLANDANDWALES
right to roam and extinction rebellion are encouraging a mass trespass.

FTFY

It's not like nobody on here has ever highlighted the different access legislation in Scotland.

[BigdummySteve]

You might laugh now but if your going to take part it’s going to have to be somewhere like a Royal residence or nuclear facility, I’d wear a black balaclava as it’s cold up north

[ScotRoutes]

Packraft to Faslane? It's a nice, subdued, olive green...

[BigdummySteve]

Olive pack raft, black balaclava and for good measure shout “ A low anchor?” Just as you get within range of the pens

[techno]

to mark the 89th aniversary of the kinder trespass and highlight the poor state of access in ENGLANDANDWALES
right to roam and extinction rebellion are encouraging a mass trespass.

FTFY

It's not like nobody on here has ever highlighted the different access legislation in Scotland.

Oh yeah. Whoops.

[thenorthwind]

It pains me to say it, but while I can see the overlap between the Extinction Rebellion cause and Right to Roam, I can't help but feel than adding XR branding is counter-productive to what otherwise seems like a valuable protest. I support what XR do, and mostly the way they do it, but protest is always a fine line between getting attention for a cause by causing disruption, and getting people's backs up. Often XR stray towards the latter, and I think name-checking them in a protest which is presumably aimed at landowners is less likely to lend weight to the argument and more likely to get the whole thing dismissed as another bit of "crusty" antagonism.

[BigdummySteve]

Very good point, the last thing us plebs want to do is further antagonise the landed gentry. At the moment we have a big enough battle preventing the criminalisation of ‘trespass’ unfortunately the behaviour of people during lockdown has not helped either cause, if fact I think our slim chances of a right to roam have become almost non-existent.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Glad you two have said summat ... I was thinking about this earlier and came to a similar conclusion. With the current situation and the expected influx of bell-ends entering the countryside throughout summer, I'm really not convinced that any mass trespass won't actually do more harm than good towards winning greater access. I can't help but feel that any link between Right to roam and Extinction Rebellion is tenuous at best, although both may view themselves as having a common 'enemy'.

[BigdummySteve]

Extinction rebellion itself seems often to have drifted from a climate protest to an anti capitalism movement and with it attracted violent extremists.
The last thing we need a trespass with a threatening edge, it’s only likely to give ammunition to those seek to criminalise a stroll in the country side.
Boring as it seems I think the best way forward would be to gather all the separate organisations with a vested interest in access. There’s an awful lot of people with a genuine interest in access and a love of the outdoors, if we could somehow join together collectively it would be an effective lobbying voice instead of a disparate timid mumbling.
With the prospect of permanently losing ROW’s not recorded by 2026 and the possibility of a trespass bill we live in very dangerous times, governments are very good at making laws, usually poor at repealing them, especially when they benefit people who line that parties coffers.
Unfortunately I think the fight at the moment is about hanging onto what we have, IF that succeeds then perhaps the momentum might lead to greater access.
I’m not overly optimistic.

[Moder-dye]

It's my birthday Almost as if I was born to be a prow/access officer

Though only 51, not 89

[techno]

Sounds like it'd be better to do something, rather than nothing.
And currently theres no gathering of vested interests.
Also, which organisation is likely to attract more young people and get them making their voice heard; the ramblers or XR?

[Bearbonesnorm]

Sounds like it'd be better to do something, rather than nothing.

Surely not if there were a chance that it could do more harm than good. It's the first rule of medicine.

which organisation is likely to attract more young people and get them making their voice heard; the ramblers or XR?

A voice needs to be heard in a way it can be understood.

[Charliecres]

I’m divided on this.

I get that, tactically, this might go awry for the access campaigners.

However, IMV we need to shift people’s perceptions from ‘the land belongs to the privileged’ to ‘we all belong to the land’. XR seems a good fit in that respect.

And, frankly, the need for environmental action/change is way, way more important than a reform in access laws.

[Dave Barter]

I think we have to be careful about demonising XR on two counts:-

1) we are mostly old gits and it’s possible that their message and approach is aimed at an up and coming generation rather than a fading one

2) there has been a massive press campaign to denigrate the organisation. Some may be justified but does it mean we all just go home and let things continue as they are? For all their faults XR keep the climate agenda buzzing

It seems a little bit hypocritical to me to laud the original trespasses and dismiss today’s action. I bet the Kinder crowd were seen in the same light as XR. We need to change the access rights nationwide. Scotland has shown that this can work and land ownership is still an utter disgrace/cartel.

[Bearbonesnorm]

we are mostly old gits and it’s possible that their message and approach is aimed at an up and coming generation rather than a fading one

I agree but the up and coming generation aren't yet the ones wielding the power. Surely in the short term you need to engage those who do?

there has been a massive press campaign to denigrate the organisation. Some may be justified but does it mean we all just go home and let things continue as they are?

Also very true and in general the UK press should be utterly ashamed of themselves for this and many other practices but (knew that was coming didn't you), Although wrong, the press have shaped public opinion and you can only work with what you've got.

t seems a little bit hypocritical to me to laud the original trespasses and dismiss today’s action. I bet the Kinder crowd were seen in the same light as XR. We need to change the access rights nationwide. Scotland has shown that this can work and land ownership is still an utter disgrace/cartel.

Again true. However, things were quite different in 1932 and there was absolutely no rights to the countryside and we have much more freedom now, than they had then (yes, in part due to those who trespassed). Landowners were very heavy handed in their approach to maintain the status quo 90 years ago and I always felt that those who took part in the trespass were fighting fire with fire to some degree.

[Bearlegged]

Landowners were very heavy handed in their approach to maintain the status quo 90 years ago...

Good thing we've got a benevolent and accountable police force these days, that are never heavy handed in their approach to maintain the status quo, eh?

[Bearbonesnorm]

Good thing we've got a benevolent and accountable police force these days, that are never heavy handed in their approach to maintain the status quo, eh?

Police are no worse than they were in the 60's, 70's or 80's and when was the last time you heard of someone having a shotgun pushed into their face?

[RIP]

fighting fire with fire to some degree

Pretty much what XR are doing I think - fighting literal fires.

Although yes I'm a little uneasy about the timing of the trespass protest.

[PaulB2]

Not sure if the police are worse than the 80s since they now run under more rigidly enforced rules but there's quite a few less of them while there's a much bigger population to cope with. A series of authoritarian leaning home secretaries have given them more draconian powers and we have a legal system that views damage to property as more serious than damage to people.

We still have one of the only (mostly) unarmed police forces in the world though, so there's that.

[Bearlegged]

No direct experience of shotguns*, thankfully, but then I am the (white, middle-class, male, hetero... etc.) embodiment of the status quo.
I don't see that as a good reason to keep the status quo, I believe we all need to push for an improvement in it, particularly to benefit those who are currently disadvantaged.
I plan to be camped out somewhere I won't have an explicit right to be as dawn breaks on the 24th, and if that marks me out as some sort of XR-centric antisocial disruptive influence, then so be it. (I'd not even noticed the XR branding until it became the hot topic...)



*There have been recent reports of gun-toting gamekeepers in a local nature reserve that adjoins a shooting estate around here.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Now, it would perhaps appear that when people read things, they read what they want rather than what's written ... at no point have I said the status quo should remain. I've not condemned the actions of the Extinction rebellion but I have said that as things stand, they may not be the best face to put forward in an effort to gain greater access given their media portrayal and therefor public opinion.

Not once have I suggested that people should do nothing and simply allow things to carry on unchanged or unchecked but have simply said that perhaps this course of action at the current time, may potentially backfire.

* carrying a shotgun is perfectly legal for those with a licence, it's pointing it at people that isn't.

[thenorthwind]

Thanks Stu, we seem to be of the same mind on this. I tried to make this clear in my original reply, but it seems from some of the subsequent replies that perhaps I didn't: I support the aims of Extinction Rebellion - I've even been on a couple of their protests. Disruption of the status quo is an essential part of protest (which is what makes the other, more newsworthy, part of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill even more scary), but we cannot ignore the fact that bringing about progressive change requires popular support, and alienating groups of people is counter-productive.

In the case of XR, I feel that, rightly or wrongly, they appear (and Dave's right about the influence of the biased media here, but that's the way it is) to overstep that line often.

The collaboration with XR doesn't undermine the argument in my eyes - but I'm not the one who needs to be persuaded here. Will landowners see it the same way?

Getting back on topic, the petition against criminalising trespass was debated by parliament yesterday, and you can watch and listen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwYCeJ--zp4 While there were representations from both sides of the debate, it seemed to me that majority of MPs who spoke did so against the Bill. Much of it focuses more on the persecution of gypsies and travellers. I thought Katherine Fletcher for South Ribble who introduced the motion made a good clear case against (she also described herself partaking in "haphazard mountain biking"). The member for North West Hampshire and Minister for Crime and Policing made a frankly laughable defence, which could be summed up as "yes, but it's not aimed at you" which of course is a perfectly reasonable argument for criminalising something He failed, despite claiming he would when challenged, to respond to the point that the Police have said they already have sufficient powers and don't want or need trespass to be criminalised

[RIP]

Thanks for that summary 'Wind, will go and have a watch of the proceedings....

[techno]

Sounds like it'd be better to do something, rather than nothing.

Surely not if there were a chance that it could do more harm than good. It's the first rule of medicine.

Nah, there's no way of knowing the outcome is there. It could all go off peacefully or it could not and protestors could be provoked into a reaction. Same could happen on any protest. Don't assume bad intentions.

which organisation is likely to attract more young people and get them making their voice heard; the ramblers or XR?

A voice needs to be heard in a way it can be understood.

Hence the letters and press releases included in the materials.
Better to engage young people into action rather than apathy.