Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Talk about anything.

Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew

jameso
Posts: 3981
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Chilterns

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by jameso » Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:07 pm

FWIW and considering the conductivity of an SPD pedal moving at the speed it is too, gappy metal surface area that's often wet, I do think SPD cleats are a big part of why your feet can get cold. Or at least can be - depends on the shoe. I have a couple of pairs of shoes that are very similar apart from one has a much more insulated and well-covered sole with the metal plate that the cleat bolts thread into covered by a dense felt fabric layer. The other pair have a resin/plastic sole with channels that make an air gap and the cleat plate is exposed there. The denser soled shoe is notably warmer at this time of year. With either show I start to feel cold in the sole of my feet from the cleat plate area, my toes don't start to feel cold first.

A good fix is a wool insole if there's space in the shoe.

Al
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:53 pm

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by Al » Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:30 pm

Not tried wool innersoles - any recommendations James?

User avatar
ScotRoutes
Posts: 6741
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am
Location: Cairngorms
Contact:

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by ScotRoutes » Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:17 pm

I currently have lambswool insoles in my Columbia Fairbanks. No idea of the brand, just a generic thing.

jameso
Posts: 3981
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Chilterns

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by jameso » Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:31 pm

Al wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:30 pm
Not tried wool innersoles - any recommendations James?
ScotRoutes wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:17 pm
I currently have lambswool insoles in my Columbia Fairbanks. No idea of the brand, just a generic thing.
Same here, some thick lambswool insoles that were a tenner. Insulating the soles made a useful difference and going back to roubaix tights rather than shorts and keewarmers with exposed shins has been worth it.
Also use the thick wool winter socks that Kalf used to make.

redefined_cycles
Posts: 5254
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by redefined_cycles » Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:05 pm

ScotRoutes wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:04 pm
What about that thin foam used as insulation under wood flooring? I have tons of the stuff used over from insulating my van. I think it's 2 or 3mm. Happy to stick some in an envelope if you want to try it.
I'll take some aswell pls Colin... let me know how much I owe ya

User avatar
htrider
Posts: 3458
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Fife
Contact:

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by htrider » Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:38 pm

I've been ruminating on this recently as I too have cold feet (figuratively and literally). I think the spd cleat / pedal sucking heat out of your feet thing is true. I've oft felt cold feet whereby the cold seems to radiate from the cleat area however I appreciate this could be a perception..... But, I've also used roomy Columbia bugaboots (rated down to -35) on placcy pedals in -5, with extra thick smartwool socks, and got cold feet......

Cheapo planet X neoprene over boots, leather roadie shoes and medium weight socks seems to always give me warm feet so I think having the outer thermal layer seems to make a big difference. I'm contemplating extreme yeti gaitors for cold snowy rides.....

Al
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:53 pm

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by Al » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:19 pm

So I had a crack at making some spaceman innersole :ugeek:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18978&p=245657#p245657

Gummikuh
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 9:44 am
Location: Roundabout Milton Keynes

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by Gummikuh » Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:25 pm

I have a pair of wool insoles in my SPD boots, seem to work, just make sure you still have room to wiggle your toes as too tight and it will get cold.

I get mine from here: https://joestoes.co.uk/

I also use a pair of running gaiters when there is a chance of water entering the top and wicking down to your feet, think mine were from alpkit. Won't work in a river crossing or deep puddle/foot down, but then it's time to go home I guess?

jameso
Posts: 3981
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Chilterns

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by jameso » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:19 am

Damn my feet were cold yesterday. Was thinking about this as I got that 'standing on a cold stone floor' feeling again, hours from home.

As a very rough estimate, looking at the approx surface area X conductivity rates of the materials, a Shimano MTB SPD cleat has around 10x the conductivity value as the PU or leather upper and rubber/plastic sole of the shoe. A carbon sole would have slightly higher conductivity but it's still in that general area, and the lower conductivity of rubber will slow the higher rate of the sole material. I haven't included any linings or insoles here, which would only add to the shoe's insulation value. The Al pedal body with steel parts could be 100x as conductive. Al conductivity rate 'K' is 250ish, steel is ~50 and PU and leather is just 0.15. Rubber 0.33, plastics used in soles around 0.45.
Carbon soles could be a lot higher, 100+ for some resin/carbon types - I assumed anyone wanting to stay warm wasn't using carbon soles in winter. And you'd be using plastic cleats if you had road pedals so that system is different (resin soles and plastic road cleats should be warmest combo).

I won't pretend the workings would look too good if marked by someone who really understands all this but on a basic level the increase in conductivity rate alone of the pedal parts over the shoe is a factor of between 350 and 2000 (for steel and Al parts vs rubber and PU or leather), vs a surface area drop of maybe 15-20x. Estimates don't include the cleat plate as that's not directly exposed to the cold but it's surely a key part of the transfer in the sole and pedal area.

The formula/value for conductivity rate is based on area but the test considers unit thickness. Re-jigging equations reliably was where mechanics and I parted ways so take all this with that disclaimer, anyway, perhaps volume is not that influential once the conduction is established across the temp gradient ie 20-30 mins into a ride. I found a calculator that looks at thermal energy conduction in W across a material where thickness is included as well as area. Gives approx 50x more energy transfer potential in an Al pedal body than a shoe upper, though of course the pedal won't have the same temp gradient as it's not next to the body. If I drop the warm side (once the sole / plate is warmed by your foot) to just 8 deg I still get 12x the W conducted there vs the upper.

Also thought the shoe upper would hit the wind much more but thinking about how we pedal, maybe it's closer to even. Still, should shift some of the bias back towards the upper on that basis.

All in all it points towards foot warmth being about the shoe initially as we know (not using mesh fronts, using neoprene covers etc) but later in a ride once everything is warmed/cooled in balance, the transfer of heat out of the foot at the cleat area is somewhere between important and the most influential factor for a typical MTB SPD system. Needs peer review for sure.

Anyway. I wonder what would happen if I completely insulated one pedal/cleat w/o covering the shoe, the basic numbers here suggest it's worth a try. Not sure how to do it practically, any ideas?
Last edited by jameso on Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ScotRoutes
Posts: 6741
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am
Location: Cairngorms
Contact:

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by ScotRoutes » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:25 am

Plastic pedals are, presumably, not as efficient at transferring heat as metal ones?

lookrider
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:17 pm

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by lookrider » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:29 am

Not read all the replies do apologies if its already on

Try an empty family bag of snacks like doritos...thet are large enough to go over feet and ankles so they keep you dry
They are silver lined for freshness ?
But that equates to keeping in heat

Very cheap ..with a try ...works for me

jameso
Posts: 3981
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Chilterns

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by jameso » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:30 am

ScotRoutes wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:25 am
Plastic pedals are, presumably, not as efficient at transferring heat as metal ones?
Yes, like pinned resin body flats? Just on a material basis there's a big difference, but I think the real drawback of the SPD system is that plate>cleat>pedal body link between the sole area and the outside. A boot and a flat pedal should be far less conductive, less linked. I've not had a problem in snowy conditions using boots and flats. Or at least less than I'd expect if hiking in similar conditions.

jameso
Posts: 3981
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Chilterns

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by jameso » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:31 am

lookrider wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:29 am
Not read all the replies do apologies if its already on

Try an empty family bag of snacks like doritos...thet are large enough to go over feet and ankles so they keep you dry
They are silver lined for freshness ?
But that equates to keeping in heat

Very cheap ..with a try ...works for me
A good emergency idea! I begged a couple of dog poo bags from a walker once on a ride that almost had me howling in pain from the cold-wet : )

User avatar
ScotRoutes
Posts: 6741
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am
Location: Cairngorms
Contact:

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by ScotRoutes » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:16 pm

jameso wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:30 am
ScotRoutes wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:25 am
Plastic pedals are, presumably, not as efficient at transferring heat as metal ones?
Yes, like pinned resin body flats? Just on a material basis there's a big difference, but I think the real drawback of the SPD system is that plate>cleat>pedal body link between the sole area and the outside. A boot and a flat pedal should be far less conductive, less linked. I've not had a problem in snowy conditions using boots and flats. Or at least less than I'd expect if hiking in similar conditions.
Yep. I changed from metal flats to resin on the basis they'd be less of a heat sink and I think there's some value on that.

HUX
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:51 pm

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by HUX » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:39 pm


User avatar
psling
Posts: 1100
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:36 am
Location: Forest of Dean

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by psling » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:33 pm

jameso wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:31 am
I begged a couple of dog poo bags from a walker once on a ride that almost had me howling in pain from the cold-wet : )
Used, for extra warmth? :shock: :lol: :lol:
We go out into the hills to lose ourselves, not to get lost. You are only lost if you need to be somewhere else and if you really need to be somewhere else then you're probably in the wrong place to begin with.

User avatar
whitestone
Posts: 6308
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:20 am
Location: Skipton(ish)
Contact:

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by whitestone » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:47 pm

I've a pair of Specialized Defrosters which are SPD boots and I don't feel any cold spots through the cleat. I've been to -3C or maybe a little colder with them.

I'm wondering if the cold spot being felt is more to do with pressure than actual temperature. Not all SPD shoes/boots are the same, some have much softer sole plates which might lead to flex around the cleat area meaning your foot is pressing harder at that point. This may then be exacerbated by a poor/thin/old footbed.

Shaf's point about the foot that he put on the ground at stops being warmer could be an indicator of this as that foot gets a rest, not from temperature as the cleat is still the same temperature it was a moment before, but pressure. Blood flow returns to that area of the foot and it warms up slightly.
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry

jameso
Posts: 3981
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Chilterns

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by jameso » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:51 pm

psling wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:33 pm
jameso wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:31 am
I begged a couple of dog poo bags from a walker once on a ride that almost had me howling in pain from the cold-wet : )
Used, for extra warmth? :shock: :lol: :lol:
Seriously, if they were full I'd have taken any warmth available that day :grin:

User avatar
ScotRoutes
Posts: 6741
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am
Location: Cairngorms
Contact:

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by ScotRoutes » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:52 pm

whitestone wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:47 pm
Shaf's point about the foot that he put on the ground at stops being warmer could be an indicator of this as that foot gets a rest, not from temperature as the cleat is still the same temperature it was a moment before, but pressure. Blood flow returns to that area of the foot and it warms up slightly.
I think that's probably correct. My experience is usually the opposite. The foot I put down is the colder of the two, probably because my body heat is then trying to heat up an object of greater mass (i.e. the planet).

jameso
Posts: 3981
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Chilterns

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by jameso » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:59 pm

I'm wondering if the cold spot being felt is more to do with pressure than actual temperature.
I was thinking along those lines riding home today - started to feel cold at the ball of the foot area first and wondered if it was simply about reduced pressure and blood flow. The shoes fit well, I don't do them up tight and there's wiggle room for toes, but the pressure always goes through that area so does it force blood away? Maybe looking at the cleat as a cause as it's also there, may be a bit of both.

Other points along these lines, I've had a bad time with cold feet after a flood was deeper than expected and lying down with my feet up for a couple of mins, stand up, repeat - got warm blood back into my feet enough to bear the rest of the ride.
Shaf's point about the foot that he put on the ground at stops being warmer could be an indicator of this as that foot gets a rest, not from temperature as the cleat is still the same temperature it was a moment before, but pressure
I think you're right. I've found walking with the bike for 10 mins usually gets some circulation going and the warmth back.

redefined_cycles
Posts: 5254
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by redefined_cycles » Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:21 pm

Last night I thought I'd pop the insulation Colin sent me. At first I added a layer with the extra merino lining I've already added. But there was the risk that wiggle room would be reduced....

So in the interests of experimentation I removed the merino (cut down sock under the insole) and added a piece of Colins insulator. I can confirm its a very good insulator indeed. Feet did get cold a few times but nothing coming through the cleat area...

James.. are you wnauring you're well wrapped up in other areas. You know the saying, 'feet cold, put on a hat'... Remember that when the body starts getting funny about preserving the core temperatures it'll sometimes divert blood away from the peripheries to focus on keeping the core good...

Obviously you know that (about wrapping other areas well) but thought to mention as it's easy to forget sometimes (I do regularly)...

User avatar
ledburner
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:47 am
Location: The worsted place on W Yorks,

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by ledburner » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:24 pm

jameso wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:19 am
Damn my feet were cold yesterday. Was thinking about this as I got that 'standing on a cold stone floor' feeling again, hours from home....

As a very rough estimate, looking at the approx surface area X conductivity rates of the materials, a Shimano MTB SPD cleat has around 10x the conductivity value as the PU or leather upper and rubber/plastic sole of the shoe....
Anyway. I wonder what would happen if I completely insulated one pedal/cleat w/o covering the shoe, the basic numbers here suggest it's worth a try. Not sure how to do it practically, any ideas?
Jameso, good thinking, thermal Eng used to do my head in., but application (maybe not optimisation), was easier..
I think one factor has been over-looked.
AIR! From the shoes I've seen, the flowing air will be cooling the pedal / cleat / screws and slots cooling the Cleat mountain plate in the mid-sole.
FILL the SLOTS, so Air /spray/ water can't get in, (Bonus, water makes a better thermal conductivity than passing air...so this will be more effective :grin:, less corrosion. ).
I used hot glue, which can be unpicked if you need to adjust cleats. In the picture it is grey a little added to the front edge, but mostly to the rear.
FYI, They Are John Luck brand (Espana) from Planet-X. The under sole is complete (under the foot bed) , like a normal shoe.
Attachments
IMG_10012021_180300_(600_x_800_pixel).jpg
(91.17 KiB) Downloaded 160 times
Alway moving forward some how... Maybe not the direction originally planned :cool: ....
Please be tolerent to spelling mistakes or typos', :oops:
I'm only fluent in one language and English appears to be my 2nd one..
:???: :o

jameso
Posts: 3981
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Chilterns

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by jameso » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:06 pm

Air, yes! I'd already glue-gunnned the holes there. Good place to start. In some shoes it's a hole through to the insole, in others the plate is almost sealed into the sole layers so the difference sealing the holes makes will vary.
Had wondered about airflow effect, around the pedal may get the air at the highest speed, but wondered only briefly, it'd be a complex model by anyone who had enough interest to set it up.

redefined_cycles
Posts: 5254
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:19 am
Location: Dewsbury, West Yorkshire

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by redefined_cycles » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:13 pm

jameso wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:06 pm
Air, yes! I'd already glue-gunnned the holes there. Good place to start. In some shoes it's a hole through to the insole, in others the plate is almost sealed into the sole layers so the difference sealing the holes makes will vary.
Had wondered about airflow effect, around the pedal may get the air at the highest speed, but wondered only briefly, it'd be a complex model by anyone who had enough interest to set it up.
So, being that waterproof (whatever the preferred term is) which don't have a hole from the cleat to the inside of the shoe, would still benefit from a glue-gun jobby over the excess recess around where the cleat is sat?? Is that what we're saying physics says?

If so I might just get the gluegun out myself... Ledburner?? James or whoever else has an interest and knowledge of thermal stuff (thermal dynamics?? enthalpy changes? etc)...

User avatar
ScotRoutes
Posts: 6741
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am
Location: Cairngorms
Contact:

Re: Simplest/cheapest way to increase the 'cold-temp' of spd boots

Post by ScotRoutes » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:19 pm

I've always filled the holes with silicon sealant. Not so much from a heat-retention point of view, more to prevent water and moisture getting into the boot (or between the sole and waterproof liner/sock.)

Post Reply