Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

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Bearbonesnorm
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Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:35 pm

I believe (although given the amount of mis-information, rumour and general bollox that cirulates, I could be wrong), that we are now allowed to travel in order to exercise. I've heard that up to 1 hours driving is allowed as long as you exercise for longer than your driving time (again could be bollox).

However, if this is actually true, then my question is - what was the point of the previous month?
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PaulB2
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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by PaulB2 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:44 pm

They've not actually changed the restrictions, they've just updated the guidelines to those restrictions since there was *zero* legal basis for the one hour per day, once a day and within a certain distance of your house type stuff that's been floated in the media. The whole point of the previous month is that's how long its taken for the government to actually think about what they actually meant by the law they put in place.

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Lazarus » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:52 pm

within the rules you can take the piss if you like and cycle more than once a day and travel if you like n gor for hours and hours,
However the broad thrust of the action is to islolate and only go out if neccessary

basically its a pandemic not paid cycling holiday
Quite obvioulsy as the threadson here and starav shows
YMMV and you can be as respnsible or as irresponsible as you please.. Just hope 60 million others dont pick an equally irresponsible choice though or its no longer a lockdown

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by ScotRoutes » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:53 pm

The guidelines are actually different for Wales, Scotland and England. In particular, the Welsh law is more proscriptive.

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by pistonbroke » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:02 pm

I think the rule is you can be as halfwitted as you want as long as you are clapping for the NHS at the time.

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ScotRoutes
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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by ScotRoutes » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:08 pm

To be clear, there was never a legal restriction on travelling for exercise. Indeed, for many folk it makes more sense to drive 10 minutes to open countryside than to exercise in a built up area with thousands of others. It doesn't help that they closed off the parks in some towns.

The new guidelines are really about that amount of leeway. They're not there to encourage folk to drive past lots of open areas just to get to a favourite beauty spot etc.

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by whitestone » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:10 pm

Stu, here's the police guidelines about what they can bollock people for - https://www.college.police.uk/What-we-d ... excuse.pdf

A lot is the unfortunately misnamed "common sense". We live in a rural location and can exercise straight from the door with a low risk of meeting anyone. For someone who lives in a city centre and exercising locally would mean lots of contact with other people then driving a short and reasonable distance to exercise makes sense. For me to do the same is taking the piss.
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Jurassic
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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Jurassic » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:15 pm

It's based on the CPS/COP guidance that was referenced on another thread (https://www.college.police.uk/What-we-d ... excuse.pdf).
It seems to me that it's taken this long for the legal experts to work out what would actually be enforceable and likely to stand up in court. It's guidance not statement of fact so wouldn't prevent an over zealous cop (or Force) from trying to enforce a harder line (which would then have to be subject to legal process to ascertain whether it would actually be upheld or not).
So if you drive an hour to exercise for an hour and a minute and are stopped and the cop gives you a fixed penalty notice it would be up to you to challenge that and go to court where you may or may not be proven to be in the right. Chances are you probably would be vindicated as you could refer to the CPS guidance as part of your defence but it's not certain.
You make a good point about why we've been told it's not acceptable to travel to take exercise for the last month though, maybe there's a difference between what's legally right and what's morally right or maybe we've been conned or maybe it's just an evolution in attitudes and advice? Dunno but new legislation is often full of contradictions and loopholes which are then gradually ironed out and amended to make it more workable. The worst examples of this are usually laws that are introduced in a hurry like the Dangerous Dogs Act or maybe the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions)(England) Regulations 2020? :roll:

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voodoo_simon
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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by voodoo_simon » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:55 pm

Cycled over to the gateway to north wales last week on the bank holiday (out for less than an hour before anyone moans) and got a picture of zero traffic on the dual carriage.

Jump back to the last hot and sunny bank holiday last year and I sat in the car in the same spot for 40-50 minutes!

Think it was also reported that there was an 84%!(or 86?) drop in traffic, from driving on the roads daily, I’d certainly say the roads are much quieter (I even take the option of the M6 now on Fridays :shock: )

To me, I’d say the vast majority of people are getting it

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Cheeky Monkey » Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:53 pm

It's the challenge of codifying principles and approaches into workable laws. I read that one in the CPS document and thought "uh oh".

I think I understand why its "bad" to drive a "long" way to exercise in the wilder parts of the uk and that the problem becomes greater in many related and interlinked ways when "lots" of people do this at the same time. I'm not so sure someone driving 3 miles to the local country park to run trails with the dog for an hour is the same (that's my sort of scenario).

I'd really struggle to define the difference simply to the entire population though. Nevermind translate it into workable statute and reliable enforcement guidance.

Hey ho, stuff in the yard and a few nocarnognarnotfar rides is still working for me.

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by whitestone » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:31 pm

Apply the "Is it alright?" rule. If you have to ask "Is it alright?" before doing something then it probably isn't so you shouldn't really be doing it.

People like binary choices: this is right, that is wrong, and have trouble dealing with subtlety. It's a bit like trying to describe climbing (or any similar sport's) ethics to someone, they aren't rules but accepted behaviour and when someone says "that's wrong" you might agree or disagree but you can't explain why.
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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:04 pm

Uhm, so it would appear that in an effort to help clear up any uncertainty, the powers have made things less clear cut. BTW, I wasn't planning to drive anywhere personally :wink:
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Jurassic
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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Jurassic » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:24 pm

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:04 pm
Uhm, so it would appear that in an effort to help clear up any uncertainty, the powers have made things less clear cut.
I think that you're absolutely correct but I do also wonder if it might be intentional in that folks behaved themselves and stayed at home over Easter (for the most part). Loosen the reins a little bit in a way that is likely to have no discernible impact on the spread of COVID-19 to make the prospect of continuing lock down less unappealing? Probably not but it is a thought.

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by ScotRoutes » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:29 pm

Nah - I think your applying some co-ordinated thinking when none actually took place. Someone was asked to put together some guidelines as a result of bad press when some forces/officers were over-stepping the mark. They've done so and maybe just erred a wee bit on the less strict side of things.

I'm reminded of the Land Reform (Scotland) Act, where access is permitted as long as it is taken "responsibly". The Scottish Outdoor Access Code tries to define "responsibly" in a non-legal/plain English way but it's still up for judgement should anything ever end up in front of a judge/jury.

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by voodoo_simon » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:35 pm

My understanding is that we’re allowed out for a hour (or so - angry curtain twitchers need not apply), so if we’re allowed to travel for less time than the exercise, that would mean its 30 minutes drive each way maximum.

For me, as Bob says, that would be taking the biscuit but some, that may be needed to get to somewhere quiet

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Jurassic
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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Jurassic » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:37 pm

ScotRoutes wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:29 pm
Nah - I think your applying some co-ordinated thinking when none actually took place. Someone was asked to put together some guidelines as a result of bad press when some forces/officers were over-stepping the mark. They've done so and maybe just erred a wee bit on the less strict side of things.

Yeah you're probably right. At least the lockdown hasn't been tightened up though (which our work Whatsapp was suggesting would happen on the 13th).
As ever the law is there to be challenged by anyone who has the inclination/determination/money to do so.

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Jurassic
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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Jurassic » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:39 pm

voodoo_simon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:35 pm
My understanding is that we’re allowed out for a hour (or so - angry curtain twitchers need not apply)
I think the hour thing was only ever a suggestion by the politicians, it's not actually specified anywhere in the legal guff afaik.

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by voodoo_simon » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:43 pm

Jurassic wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:39 pm
voodoo_simon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:35 pm
My understanding is that we’re allowed out for a hour (or so - angry curtain twitchers need not apply)
I think the hour thing was only ever a suggestion by the politicians, it's not actually specified anywhere in the legal guff afaik.
You’re right on that. I use it as a guide time for my rides though

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by ScotRoutes » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:51 pm

Here's another anomaly. Let's say I ride up to Loch Morlich and back, from home. 25 km or so. Takes me a couple of hours (if I'm dawdling). I see maybe 6 cyclists and four walkers. All perfectly "acceptable".

Let's say my neighbour drives up to Loch Morlich. 10 minutes or so. Parks, has a wee walk - 30-40 minutes, drives back. Probably sees fewer folk than I did.

Which of the two is better/worse?

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by jobro » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:56 pm

Jurassic wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:39 pm
voodoo_simon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:35 pm
My understanding is that we’re allowed out for a hour (or so - angry curtain twitchers need not apply)
I think the hour thing was only ever a suggestion by the politicians, it's not actually specified anywhere in the legal guff afaik.
You’re right on that. I use it as a guide time for my rides though
The one hour thing was a throwaway comment by that despicable excuse for a human being Michael Gove when pressed outside of the official daily briefing by a journalist. There had not been up to that point, or has been since, a limit to the duration of exercise. Just shows how things get taken as "fact" in our modern web based lives!!

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Jurassic
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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Jurassic » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:00 pm

jobro wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:56 pm

The one hour thing was a throwaway comment by that despicable excuse for a human being Michael Gove when pressed outside of the official daily briefing by a journalist. There had not been up to that point, or has been since, a limit to the duration of exercise. Just shows how things get taken as "fact" in our modern web based lives!!
I enjoy your description of Michael Gove jobro. :-bd

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Lazarus » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:03 pm

I think the hour thing was only ever a suggestion by the politicians, it's not actually specified anywhere in the legal guff afaik.
true but isolation, lockdown, and essential are mentioned.
Its enough excercise to keep you healthy- that is probably not 350 miles a week as i have seen from some.
Personally sticking to the one hour rule and staying within 5-6 miles of my house and riding the roads [ quieter] than the trails. Even doing it daily this is less time than I normally ride but I repeat isolation, pandemic, essential.

Scots - guidelines are what they are they wont cover every conceivable scenario - both the scnarios you mention are legal though your is over the 1 hour advice.
The trials are not going away your loved ones might be. Do what you can protect them and you

YMMV

Technically gove said 30 mins for a run, one hour for a walk and somewhere between the two for a cycle ride.

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Jurassic
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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Jurassic » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:10 pm

voodoo_simon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:43 pm
Jurassic wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:39 pm
voodoo_simon wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:35 pm
My understanding is that we’re allowed out for a hour (or so - angry curtain twitchers need not apply)
I think the hour thing was only ever a suggestion by the politicians, it's not actually specified anywhere in the legal guff afaik.
You’re right on that. I use it as a guide time for my rides though
Yeah me too. My little training loop takes me 1 hour and 20 minutes, I don't feel toooooo guilty about the extra 20 minutes though. :grin: I'm a key worker and I could ride to work (which takes between one and half and two hours each way depending on conditions, willpower etc) but I haven't been doing that as it seems like taking the piss a bit more. I reserve the right to change my mind on that though and the idea is slowly becoming more attractive to me.

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by ScotRoutes » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:12 pm

Lazarus wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:03 pm

Scots - guidelines are what they are they wont cover every conceivable scenario - both the scnarios you mention are legal though your is over the 1 hour advice.
Yeah, my point is that the short drive seems reasonable in every way.

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Re: Travel restrictions. Can anyone explain to me?

Post by Lazarus » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:47 pm

yes i have though about it locally because if i drive 8 miles i get to the quiet side of the hill and should be able to ride isolated - at least all the paths are tracks so plenty wide enough even if i do meet people
However the roads are so quiet so I am actually enjoying road riding as if i live somwhere rural with traffic freeish roads.

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