Why are Grand Departs only for racers....?

[gairym]

The events on the Self Supported website are all races? The site lists the rules for racing and I assume that people who submit a route to it for inclusion do so as they want people to ride them as fast as they can and post a time

But that's just someone who's added them to their website, no?

If I create the website www.mostly-self-supported-but-share-your-haribo.com and add all the same events are they now non-competitive?

Ok, ok, that's not entirely a valid point

But.....it's more about events being taken over by a very vocal racing minority when many of them might not have been intended to be particularly competitive to begin with and in fact the majority of participants at any given event still aren't actually racing in any meaningful way that warrants the militant imposition of sets of arbitrary rules.

[ScotRoutes]

Going further down the rabbit hole...

The Self-supported rules are important in the sense that they try to define exactly what that term means. It's up to the individual whether to abide by them but they do serve as a sort of shorthand for any discussions etc. There is definitely a certain cachet that comes from saying you did a route "self-supported". In my last job, I met hundreds of LEJOGers and it's accepted there is a hierarchy of achievement. At the low end, it's the folk who had full, mobile back-up the whole way, with luggage transfer, sag-wag etc. Then there's the folk (the majority) who make use of B&Bs, hotels etc. At the summit are the campers (even if they use the occasional B&B). It's just tacitly accepted that this is the case. I think it's just human nature that folk judge others according to some sort of scale. The question then is - do you care how other folk view your achievement? If you do then you will likely want to add your name to a Completions page and you then have to accept the rules as laid down by that page. If you you don't care, then ride your bike and do what you want. Outside of the arcane world of bikepacking, no one will care whether or not you ate someone else's Haribo.

[jameso]

^ that's a very fair point Gairy (as is Scotroute's who posted while I was typing). Comes back to what I was getting at about events needing to decide and clarify what they are, if they care that is. If they don't then I think it's fair to ignore self support rules if you prefer. Otherwise it all gets a bit like the politics of the Judean People's Front
Listing fastest times and finish order makes it a race or a ranked ITT in my opinion.

I'm not sure the racers are taking over though. I think there is a need for the adherents of SS ethics like Sean to be able to be vocal in their take on SS, as that's largely how the ethics are upheld. Word of mouth and examples, test cases etc. So it may seem like a take-over as there's a lot to be discussed, an emotive subject. But it's not a dictatorship :)

(and I think you should set up that website!)

[whitestone]

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that a rider ignores the safety of another regardless of what "the rules" say. I'd wager every single rider would rather be DQ'd for giving or receiving such aid than have to deal with a seriously injured or dead competitor/rider. Phil (htrider) and I discussed this whilst on the HT550, we were both of the opinion that if we came across someone in serious trouble, whether associated with the ride or not, then we'd help and in places like Fisherfield we'd be hitting the SOS button on the SPOT, ride/race over.

I think that from the outside what can appear as a very competitive, insular event actually appears very different from the inside. You might imagine riders elbows out, snarling Dick Dastardly like at each other when the reality is more: "How are you doing old chap?" "Fine, and you?". The rules are more to encourage self-reliance rather than restrict interaction between riders - there's a big difference in accepting from a bag of sweets offered round a group as an act of friendship and accepting food because you were ill-prepared and didn't think to bring any.

The two "events" that I've entered so far this year couldn't have been more different. The Rovaniemi 150 is billed as an Arctic fat-biking race whilst the JennRide is, well, something else. I don't know how exactly to describe it, maybe a challenge but you aren't bound to the published route, I didn't for example. Yet apart from the obvious temperature differences actually riding in them feels very similar. While some on the JennRide certainly "went for it" most were there to both test and enjoy themselves. I spent a total of 2 1/2 hours in two visits to The Newfield Inn for example , timed it so I got a perfect sunset at the top of Walna Scar, bivvied the other side and then rode to the finish with my wife.

[sean_iow]

But that's just someone who's added them to their website, no?

I understood that the creators of the route did so as they wanted them raced or ITT'd and it's the creator who submits them? The events usually have a contact to submit you gpx and time to after riding it to be put on the leaderboard.

But your idea is actually quite good. Perhaps there should be a website to coordinate routes for non-racers? There must be lots of other routes people have created which could be shared? With info on pubs/locations of campsites/shops etc. to encourage newbies? And instead of submitting times and gpx's to confirm a completion they could submit photos of themselves enjoying the route?

Just in case this sounds sarcastic it's not, I think it would be a great alternative to Self Supported for the non-racers or for the racers (myself) who also like a social ride. The rules on the website would strictly forbid the submission of time taken.

Edit, just remembered this, I'll post more in the 'routes' section

https://www.walkandcycle.co.uk/wessexwaycyclingholiday

I only discovered it at the weekend, despite it finishing within riding distance of my house. First one to add to the haribo sharing website?

[whitestone]

There were quite a few replies whilst I typed my last response out

In the UK the biggest bikepacking events in terms of numbers, so by the process of deduction have a group start, are: The WRT; the JennRide; Moors 100; Dorset Gravel thingy?; HT550; BB200; maybe the Braunton 150. There's only really the HT that admits to being anything like a race. Sure some people ride the others as if they're a race but they aren't taking over.

As Colin notes, avoidance of the "R" word is as much for legal reasons as anything - it's illegal to race a bike on bridleways in England and Wales. It's similar to sportives being timed rides over a road route avoiding the "R" word so entrants don't need racing insurance, etc.

There are routes, both on selfsupporteduk and elsewhere that are more relaxed. The Sandstone Way in Northumberland for example, the Ridgway and SDW both appear on self-supported but most just ride the routes rather than race them.

[ScotRoutes]

And this just appeared on Facebook

http://dirtdash.cc/dunoon/

[Cheeky Monkey]

...

Not a fan of early starts hence the 9.30 departure gives the local traders some trade in Breakfasts.

Rich

You my dear are a man after my (congested, cholesterol ridden, early heart-attack-death) heart

[gairym]

I'm not sure the racers are taking over though. I think there is a need for the adherents of SS ethics like Sean to be able to be vocal in their take on SS, as that's largely how the ethics are upheld. Word of mouth and examples, test cases etc. So it may seem like a take-over as there's a lot to be discussed, an emotive subject. But it's not a dictatorship :)

Of course there's no intentional 'take-over' but it does seem to becoming more and more strict and authoritarian as the pointy end gets pointy-er.

As people mentioned in the Tour Divide thread it's only going to become more 'serious' and 'professional' as more and more money enters the world of Bikepacking.

Just in case this sounds sarcastic it's not, I think it would be a great alternative to Self Supported for the non-racers or for the racers (myself) who also like a social ride. The rules on the website would strictly forbid the submission of time taken.

(and I think you should set up that website!)

I'm sold on the idea!

I suppose what I meant by the racers 'taking over' is that I always thought of it as everything for everyone but now it turns out that all the events have been snaffled up by the self-supported crowd and the idea of being non-competitive is the new kid on the block that needs to establish itself.

In the UK the biggest bikepacking events in terms of numbers, so by the process of deduction have a group start, are: The WRT; the JennRide; Moors 100; Dorset Gravel thingy?; HT550; BB200; maybe the Braunton 150. There's only really the HT that admits to being anything like a race. Sure some people ride the others as if they're a race but they aren't taking over.

But that's kind of showing nicely what I mean. The biggest events aren't the races and yet we have comments like the one below:

.....I do question the sort of person who would cheat on what is essentially a personal challenge- it just seems so pointless.

It's not cheating it's just not accepting a set of external and entirely fabricated 'rules' that others have decided they are going to accept and follow.

If it's a race then there are rules and you can cheat. If it's a personal challenge then it's impossible to cheat as it's just a bike ride.

But we're going round in circles with that particular aspect and so I'll leave it for now - let's agree to disagree about the 'cheating' thing.

[Bearbonesnorm]

I think the fact remains that races or just events with an element of competitiveness are headline grabbers which can alter our perception of what's REALLY happening out there. I'm starting to think the mass start aspect probably has less bearing on whether something is a 'race'* or not as there's a few cases where events don't follow that rule.

As soon as an event has a fixed route then there will always be people trying to ride it as fast as possible. This is true even when there's just a route and no actual event, which perhaps helps to prove the point. I'm also thinking that most events don't simply stand on one side of the fence or the other but stand as individual cases and each should be ridden in accordance with it's own guidelines and maybe even within the 'feeling' of the event?


•I use that term very loosly.

[BigdummySteve]

Surely that’s what the ‘who’s playing out’ forum is for. To organise grand(ish) departs for the non racers amongst us?

[sean_iow]

I suppose what I meant by the racers 'taking over' is that I always thought of it as everything for everyone but now it turns out that all the events have been snaffled up by the self-supported crowd and the idea of being non-competitive is the new kid on the block that needs to establish itself.

I don't think the racers have 'taken over' the events, certainly not the ones I've done, they always were races.

HT550, set up by Alan as a race
Dales Divide, set up by Chris as a race
B150, set up by Ben as a race

When you email to put your name down you go on the mailing list and in the emails you get will be the 'rules' which by starting you agree to abide by, so if you break them you're cheating. If you want to ride the route and not stick to the rules then simply don't sign up for the race. As I said about the HT550, there's loads of people riding the route and not racing, but they don't get any coverage so people don't realise how many there are. I met 3 german lads who'd come over to ride it, they were having a great time.

For balance, if an event is not a race I make a point of not racing. There is a local charity event on the Island which crosses the Island twice, so about 54 miles. The Doctor who organisies it lives about half way across and there is a checkpoint at his house with food laid on. Every year I stop for ages at the checkpoint, in both directions, and as I'm usually one of the last through on the return leg and there's loads of food left he usually makes me eat at least 3 slices of cake to try and use it up I usually roll in to the finish as one of the last riders with a couple of mates. Some people treat it as a 'race' as it's timed but that's mainly to check everyone has finished, as it's not a race it doesn't bother me how fast they go, it just leaves more cake left for me an my mates to consume

[jameso]

Social group rides like a kind of pop-up HT, TNR or TT etc could be a great site. Tbh I've seen that as TNRs likely future for a while. Riders decide when to go and the groups self-select, manage numbers etc.

[whitestone]

I suppose what I meant by the racers 'taking over' is that I always thought of it as everything for everyone but now it turns out that all the events have been snaffled up by the self-supported crowd and the idea of being non-competitive is the new kid on the block that needs to establish itself.

I don't think that's the case at all. As Stu says, as soon as there's a defined route then some will try to ride it as fast as possible. That doesn't mean those some have "taken over", there may be the perception that they have but that's because they or others tend to shout out from the rooftops about "fastest time on ...".

If you wish to compare yourself against others then some rules become inevitable so you compare like with like otherwise you end up with unsavoury accusations being cast about. If you only wish to test yourself then WGAF even if you are in the same event.

There's a close similarity with fell racing here: in any given race there'll be maybe a dozen at most actually "racing" with a chance of being on the podium (actually three different bits of mud all about the same height), everyone else is just there to see how well they can do, maybe beat last year's time, but they know before entering they'll come halfway down the field or wherever. Two different groups of people in the same race running under the same rules, maybe.

[psling]

To my mind a 'race' is when a group of people start at the same time and the winner is the first to finish. This necessitates a 'group start'.
Then you have 'competitive rides' where people either ride to achieve something, eg completing within a stated time limit or ride to post a time in a list of times eg an ITT or even Strava. These may or may not have a 'group start'.
Then you have non-competitive events eg WRT, Jenn Ride where most people ride at their own pace for their own pleasure even if this allows for a degree of personal competitiveness. These will usually have a social 'group start' with nary a whiff of testosterone in the air.
So, I don't think the Grand Depart is only for racers but that a 'race' does necessitate a Grand Depart.
My twopenn'orth

I do believe though that social media has a disproportional effect on this subject; brand ambassadors attract money, money attracts competitiveness for possibly all the wrong reasons but by its very nature it is this side of the 'sport' that is seen the most by everyone with access to a 'phone/computer/media-streaming device.

[ScotRoutes]

I don't think that's the case at all. As Stu says, as soon as there's a defined route then some will try to ride it as fast as possible. That doesn't mean those some have "taken over", there may be the perception that they have but that's because they or others tend to shout out from the rooftops about "fastest time on ...".

I'm pretty sure I have the fastest time on the Caledonian Way

[dlovett]

I can’t see what the issue is in wanting to race an event. After all if an event could legally be called a race then some would and by entering you would know it was a race. As they cannot be called races people seem surprise that people do enter to race them.

[gairym]

So it would seem that it's mostly my problem with a few others agreeing in part with aspects of what I have a problem with

It's ok, I can take it.

I suppose I'll just have to be extra careful which events I enter in the future as I wouldn't want to accidentally end up in a race

In the meantime I'll get to work on that website.....

And just for the record I'll always take haribo and happily take a DQF in exchange.

Peace out homies!

*Quick amendment: thinking about it I've never not followed the self-supported 'rules' and claimed an official finishing time in any event. I've DQF/DNF'd over half the events I've entered despite often completing the whole thing.

[ScotRoutes]

I suppose I'll just have to be extra careful which events I enter in the future as I wouldn't want to accidentally end up in a race

It would appear it's not that simple. Some folk will turn it into a race regardless.

[gairym]

I suppose I'll just have to be extra careful which events I enter in the future as I wouldn't want to accidentally end up in a race

It would appear it's not that simple. Some folk will turn it into a race regardless.

[Bearlegged]

There is a local charity event on the Island which crosses the Island twice, so about 54 miles.

Ooh, please tell me more? I'm a pretty frequent visitor to the IoW.

[sean_iow]

He's the facebook page, I think that's the only way they promote it as it doesn't cost anything.

https://www.facebook.com/Isle-of-Wight- ... 758117472/

It's on the 22nd September this year, I'm going to miss it as I'm away on holiday which is poor planning on my part
I can send you a gpx of the route if required?

[Bearlegged]

Ah, I'll not be able to make it this year, but will keep an eye on it for the future. Cheers!

[sean_iow]

They've moved the date back this year, it's usually in late June or July. I wouldn't have agreed to go on holiday with relatives if I'd known I'd miss the End 2 End