A roadie question.

[Bearbonesnorm]

This is an observation that leads to a genuine question - 'tis not a rant.

I've just seen a group of road cyclists heading up over the mountain past the Star. The rear group of 3 were 3 abreast and quite wide apart so they took up the LH side of the road completely. They weren't moving quickly by any stretch and seemed unable to ride without swerving / wobbling ... even the Ti frames couldn't help.

Anyway, my question is - is this normal practice? Hand on heart I cringed when I saw them and the cars sat behind. I just can't help thinking that it does nothing to help the 'us and them' mentality that seems to exist and simply provides 'them' with more ammunition. Honestly, I'd have being pissed off if I'd been behind them. Whenever I find myself on the road in the company of 'boners' everyone just seems to slot into single file quite naturally or if 2 abreast, move into the side at the first sign of a car ... and it just kind of seems like the sensible thing to do?

[whitestone]

It varies, some don't give a ****, others will pull in towards the side. Some can ride in a group, some can't - it's a skill like any other and takes a bit of time to get used to particularly if you don't know the other riders. Does depend on number of riders in the group and what the road is like: would you "encourage" someone to drive past just before a blind bend for example?

Generally rule #1* applies: Don't be a dick!

*actually Velominati rule #43 but it should be #1

[chris n]

One long string of bikes in single file can be harder to overtake than a bunch of riders two abreast. The highway code says:

You should ... never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends

But it also says you should wear a helmet.

[RIP]

Could write a million pages on this subject. Will keep it to this: "all/many/some/a-few(*) roadies don't acknowledge or communicate with drivers around them and that's probably the main thing that winds people up rather than the 'potentially in the way' bit" and leave it at that.

(*) delete as applicable depending on your personal criteria/view

[ootini]

I heard that basically the traditional "single file" formation, although seemingly the safer option, is all a bit counter intuitive. The idea of the riders being "bunched up" and riding two or three abreast, means that when a car from behind eventually does attempt to take over, it's actually on the right hand side of the road for a shorter period of time, and thus a safer option than the "single file chain gang", which would require the car to be on the right hand side of the road for a longer period.

I dunno....

[psling]

Interesting conundrum. I think you have to separate emotion from answering the question, everyone has there own interpretation of right and wrong on British roads whatever their form of transport.

My take is that a group of riders riding two abreast reduces the overall length of the 'footprint', which is a good thing.
Given that any overtaking vehicle should pass wide (as if passing a motor vehicle), single file or two abreast makes no difference; the overtaking vehicle should still overtake on the other side of the road. Riding single file encourages overtakers to squeeze by and take chances against oncoming traffic.
However, if the road is narrow and riding two abreast means a vehicle coming up behind cannot overtake two riders abreast safely then riders should move to single file to allow safe passing.
If the road is so narrow that the vehicle behind cannot overtake single file riders safely then the riders should look to allow the following vehicle(s) to pass safely at the earliest opportunity.

My bugbear with groups of riders is when they string out in a long bunch the length of a couple of articulated lorries without allowing gaps for overtaking vehicles to pull into to enable them to pass safely. That is just unnecessarily creating frustration and making it dangerous for anyone to attempt to overtake.

Three abreast? Just daft i.m.o. - if a vehicle comes along, especially on roads like that. Pull across to single file or two abreast as necessary.

At the end of the day it's common sense. And we all have that, don't we....

[RIP]

Ootini makes a good point about lane position. The recommended practice on Bikeability courses these days is for a (lone) rider to keep to the middle of their lane unless shifting left to an arm's length from the kerb would not put them in a vulnerable position. That obviously depends on location/traffic etc. Round town, I'm usually middle-of-the-lane unless I deem it not-unsafe-for-me to allow a vehicle to pass in which case I shift 1m from the kerb & they can pass in their own good time. On quiet roads, less problem to be nearer the kerb allowing most vehicles to pass. Studies have shown that vehicles get much closer to you the more you "keep out of the way". They also get much closer to riders who give the impression of knowing what they're doing and are wearing hivis togs . If I feel I'm "holding a vehicle up", but it would be to my detriment to shift "out of the way", I'll look behind, smile, tip a hand, to acknowledge that at least I feel their pain - and I can't remember the last time a vehicle "beeped" me in those situations.

[whitestone]

The problem with "common sense" is that it's misnamed!

As the answers have shown, there's no one right answer or way to approach it. A single file of more than a handful of riders encourages drivers to sneak past and potentially pull in to the middle of the line if something comes the other way. Also if one driver decides to overtake then the driver behind decides it's OK without even checking. Riding X abreast runs the risk of on-coming traffic.

Our (road) club now have a maximum number per "group" on the road as you just can't have say a bunch of twenty riders at once on small country lanes. The ride may have several groups and the person in charge of the later ones tries to ensure they don't get too close to the group in front so that drivers can get past. If they can they'll pull in to let cars past but it's not always immediately possible when walls/hedges are right by the roadside.

[Pirahna]

I joined my first road club as a youngster in the 70's and have been a member of various clubs since but gave up about five years ago. Once upon a time club runs only happened in the winter, once the race calendar started you were expected to be racing on a Sunday, any group rides were organised between mates and were nothing to do with the club. If you couldn't ride in a group you were never going to be racer so everyone was well drilled at group riding. I joined my last club when I moved house 17 years ago, it was fairly small with only a couple of people racing, the rest all had many years of racing under their wheels. Group rides were well disciplined affairs all conducted at a steady pace. Two abreast most of the time, single up when needed.

Then along came sportiv's and a surge in the popularity of road riding. We started to get new club members, some very fit people who's entire experience of riding an event was to go as fast as possible for the distance. They'd move to the front of group rides and try to up the pace with slower members getting shelled out the back. None of them could ride on the wheel in front with either big gaps forming or more likely half wheeling. Half wheeling effectively pushes the outside rider in a double line wide and results in three abreast.

I got so pissed off with whole thing I left. Occasionally I'll bump into them or other groups on the lanes and the standard of riding is generally appalling. Wifey still rides with the club and I meet them at the pub from time to time, but definitely no more group riding for me.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Uhm, interesting stuff. I know what you mean about 'communication' Reg and perhaps trying to humanise yourself in the eyes of drivers ... the riders in question from this afternoon seemed completely oblivious to anything around them which can come across as quite arrogant.

[whitestone]

Reg - I'll usually ride on my own or with Cath on the road. If the road's twisty I'll try and make it obvious I'm looking ahead to see if it's clear for a car to pass (assuming they haven't already thought "sod it! That ****** doesn't pay car tax so I can blast straight on") and then wave them on and acknowledge their patience.

[ZeroDarkBivi]

I occasionally do a group ride with my work club or local club, and often find myself cringing at how badly some riders behave in such situations - arrogance or stupidity - it just ratchets up the friction with other road users. Perhaps surprisingly it's the experienced people as often (or even more so) than the newbies...

[fatbikephil]

On my jaunt a few weekends ago I was pedalling up the road past Aberfeldy in my usual early morning bikepacking daze (not helped by a poor nights sleep) when I hear bicycle noises and suddenly a group of roadies came past - a group of women as it happens which is irrelevant but not something I've ever come across before, hey ho - anyway they all seemed to up the pace a bit to get past me sharpish and off they went. Later on another (mixed) group caught me up on the wee road out of Pitclochry they seemed to sit on my wheel for ages (I was on a loaded Jones + FFS) and passing took about 2 miles of faffing and dithering with me getting held up on both climbs and descents. They seemed more like a bunch of mates than a club and all had bling bikes but were clearly clueless when it came to bike riding....

I didn't care of course but they were 'all the gear and no idea' types writ large. I suspect these are the ones who cause problems for other road users and a well drilled outfit will be fine....

[Dave Barter]

My view will be hugely unpopular. But here goes.

I hate the fact that we are conditioned to see roads as to be used in the fastest possible manner. This only ever causes death.

Why the frustration when sat in a machine where the effort to wait is simply some tiny movements of the foot. Where are you going that makes it critical to be there on the exact nail? And why leave no contingency? This phrase “held up”. I want to kill it and replace it with “wait your turn”. The bike rider got to the hill first so let him/her have their turn summering however they see fit as long as it is legal. Especially the fat lad who maybe needs some weaving to make it up.

We let the motorist set 100000 unwritten rules about roads and let them sit in a box full of pent up rage if their “right” to be the fastest user if it is not satisfied.

And before you say it. Roads were not built for cars. The network arose from an explosion in leisure cycling/touring from the working-lower middle classes. We let the upper class motorists wrestle control away.

Come the revolution I’d have a Khymer Rouge style reprogramming of everyone to see their motoring as a privilege not a right.

Now bring on the hate

[chris n]

Now bring on the hate

None from me Dave. Totally agree on all points.

[Bearbonesnorm]

No hate Dave. I reckon most folk here would actually agree.

Trouble is, regardless of the rights / wrongs or who holds the high ground, these lads were putting themselves in harms way and the outcome of car / cycle contact is usually a foregone conclusion with only one winner.

[Oli.vert]

I hear what your saying with this Stu, and I wince at cyclists here in London in a similar way on an almost daily basis. Not for riding 3 abreast, but the wobbling starts across junctions from the lights, in front of not only the trucks and busses, but the peloton of other cyclists all competing to get further down the road the fastest. I don't wince at those though, I suck my teeth and tut at them, mainly as I risk my neck trying to cross the road to get a pint of milk as the sods refuse to slow down even a tiny bit to allow you to cross.

Risks are everywhere. If we stopped doing things just cos there was a risk of some nutter not being as careful with us as we'd hope, then we'd never go anywhere, or have milk in our tea.

[viragevitesse]

I agree that there is an issue with the relatively recent explosion of popularity with recreational road cycling. You get newbies going straight to road bikes with their other newbie mates and haven't joined a club or experienced bunch ride to learn the ropes.
Here in Australia even with all of our quiet back country roads, the speed limit is 100kmph and even if only few cars, it only takes one motorist to hit and kill you. I think its better to be as far to the edge of the road as possible so that you give the speeding motorist somewhere to go. No use in explaining the moral high ground of being able ride two abreast from a hospital bed.
I think the emergence of 'all-road' bikes has been a good thing. Less excuse not to ride on the shoulder on the rough surface for the sake of getting out of harms way.

[jameso]

Roadies eh : ) Riding in a bunch on road ... in most places, ---- that. That's why I like all-road bikes or easy MTB terrain, you can ride and chat quite happily. I went riding with a road club a few times and though less chaotic than the average sportive, it's also a good way to remove the joy or freedom from road riding

As for wobbling or riding 3 abreast, not great but there are less-smart people in all walks of life, all vehicles. Like walkers who fill the entire width of a bike path. Ah well. sub standard world where you can't do that if you feel like it when it's a nice day on a quiet path, yes it's a better world if we were a bit more Euro in that general respect but hey ho. Don't be the indignant idiot on the bike there who's no better than the speeding car in relation to the same cyclist later on. Those behind have the duty of care to those in front, simple - but everyone should pay attention and just get on.
It's amazing to see how a place like Taiwan or Indonesia has way denser traffic than we do yet the stress levels and interaction between mopeds and cars are just going-with-the-flow. The issue we have is a national mentality thing, on both sides probably. I'll take a punt at where it starts though.

these lads were putting themselves in harms way

Not on the offensive here Stu but were they in danger based on average driving speeds etc, or actually on the wrong side of the road on a bend? I only say that as, similar to viragevitesse's post, sometimes it's assumed we're in harms way because we've normalised the risk from bad driving. Sure, moral high ground is pointless point accepted, just saying - bad driving and lack of care from drivers is too normalised, by society as well as the legal system. Where else would close to 2,000 people die every year with no action being taken to prevent it?

[wriggles]

Anything wrong with just pulling over to let a car past if they have been behind you for more than half a minute or there is a good place to do so?

(works for me)

[Zippy]

why can't we all just get along?

I like riding my bike on the road, I also like hooning around in a car, i'm sure horse riders like tootling along - but that's not my bag. When riding, I try to be courteous to cars, and expect vice versa - in fact often those in exotic machinery who see my pistonheads cycling jersey will purposely open the taps up for me which they will receive a big thumbs up.
Why can't we all just say hi, make space for each other and let each other get along. Same sort of thing as when on a MTB or walking and see each off road.

In a similar vein, I have no problem with people going faster than me on a MTB trail, or on the road, and will let them past when it's convenient for all if I can, and generally people seem to when off roading (non peak season), but on the road - people don't seem to do so so much. (People who know how I generally drive/ride may find this statement mildly amusing).

Basically, I think a lot of people don't think and realise the knock on effects. After all, anyone faster than you is a lunatic, anyone slower is a doddery liability....

Happy Friday everyone

[Bearbonesnorm]

why can't we all just get along?

Can you hear yourself? Can ya?

[Bearbonesnorm]

Not on the offensive here Stu but were they in danger based on average driving speeds etc, or actually on the wrong side of the road on a bend? I only say that as, similar to viragevitesse's post, sometimes it's assumed we're in harms way because we've normalised the risk from bad driving.

I see what you mean. I suppose it's an assumption based on how dangerous the roads here can be. They're certainly quiet compared to most places (maybe that can make the problem worse). Add a high percentage of very heavy traffic (farming / forestry), the narrow twisty nature and the added bonus of tourists who aren't used to these type of roads and riding on the defence just seems like a sensible thing to do. Things like forestry trucks will take up 80% of the road and don't generally bother to slow down much

[Zippy]

and yet ironically my wing mirror got smashed off by a motorcyclist who decided that he didn't have enough space on his side of the road and wanted to use my side, despite doing about 25mph on my side of the road coz I thought the 100 or so motorcyclists coming the other way were using far more road than necessary for such a narrow vehicle when there were oncoming vehicles Did you know that the auto-dimming glass for your wing mirror costs more than £500.... and that's just for the glass.

[ScotRoutes]

I agree that there is an issue with the relatively recent explosion of popularity with recreational road cycling. You get newbies going straight to road bikes with their other newbie mates and haven't joined a club or experienced bunch ride to learn the ropes.

There's something wrong if you can't go for a ride with your mates without having to go through some strange club initiation ritual. Sounds like the usual sort of club-based snooty elitism we have over here.