New wheels not true, Evans fobbing me off...

[Alh14]

So bought a Jamis dragonslayer 27.5+ from Evans. Very happy with it but both wheels don’t run true, probably only a few mm out but it is visible when spinning the wheels.

Took it back so they could true the wheels, picked it up yesterday to be told that they could not get the wheels true, due to them being plus rims (WTB scraper i40, 40mm internal width) and tensioning the spokes more would potentially cause spoke breakage.

Are they telling me porkies ? as have no experience of plus tyre rims.

[Bearbonesnorm]

100% sure it's the rim and not the tyre? It can be hard to tell sometimes.

[redefined_cycles]

Tires on plus rims I'd imagine would be a major culprit as Stu says.

Regards what Evans have told you. Its not total porkies as some rims (unbuilt) are less true than others and on a plus rim this would mean excess forces of tension to counter this.

To understand a little more you need to know that there's 3 calibrations (tensions, measurements, use whatever word you please) that the wheel builder is playing with : radial true (how round the wheel is); lateral true (the side to side wobble); spoke tensions. To get a perfect wheel that performs in the field reliably, we need to ensure all three of these aforementioned forces/tensions/measurements are equalised and work in harmony. Some wheelbuilders (are sub standard) and just make sure you have a perfectly laterally true wheel with spoke tensions and radial true all over the place. This means the wheel is more likely to snap a spoke &/or go out of true very quickly.

As a point of reference normal thin rims are generally allowed a 0.5mm (approx) allowance. Ie they are built within a 0.5mm wobble. Some builders claim to work within a 0.2mm tolerance but you cannot always be sure how equalised they've made their tensions (if a few are more put of sync than others then more likely spoke breakages or losing true further quicker.

Hopefully the above makes sense so far. I've not had to build plus wheels yet but I'd imagine to be working to slightly more than the 0.5mm tolerancd I mentioned above to ensure we have equalised tensions. Also remember that 0.5mm when in a wheel jig (or between break calipers or whatever reference ppint you use to check the true... maybe the little finger stabilised against the rim) looks alot bigger.

So to check if Evans have been talking from their bottom. After youve made sure its not a wobbly tyre (maybe remove it!), you could check spoke tensions. Use your nail or something that you could pluck a guitar with and carefully go around the wheel plucking the spokes. If you hear an obviously big difference between adjacent spokes (only compare spokes of either side with their corresponding side if that makes sense) and one sounds like its The Clash with the neighbouring spoke sounding like Pavarottis choir, then theres room for further improvement and tensioning.

Hope it all makes sense. In a nutshell, if its nit a major wobble I'd be inclined to just trust what they said as Evans are pretty decent enough at what thry do and generally lovely chaps (in my exp when visiting the store)...

[ScotRoutes]

told that they could not get the wheels true, due to them being plus rims (WTB scraper i40, 40mm internal width) and tensioning the spokes more would potentially cause spoke breakage.

As you have guessed, that's bollocks. There is no reason a Plus rim shouldn't be running true. If they are struggling then backing it all off and starting from fresh would indicate whether or not the rim itself is already bent. I've had to intervene with a couple of our guys wasting hours trying to get a wheel just perfect when the rim itself was found to be beyond salvageable.

However, it would be better if you could quantify "a few mm". For info, BS 6102 for bikes sets the tolerance for rim brake wheels at +/-2mm side-to-side and +/-4mm up-and-down. +/-4mm side-to-side on disc wheels. It might be aesthetically pleasing to get it less but it's not a major problem.

[sean_iow]

BS 6102 for bikes sets the tolerance for rim brake wheels at +/-2mm side-to-side and +/-4mm up-and-down. +/-4mm side-to-side on disc wheels. It might be aesthetically pleasing to get it less but it's not a major problem.

That's quite a tolerance for disc wheels! So the rim only needs to be within 4mm of true at any point? So if it's +4mm at the valve hole and -4mm directly opposite that's a 'wobble' of 8mm

I hadn't realised the tolerances were so big, that explains some of the wheels I've seen on new bikes before.

[BigdummySteve]

I’m also suffering from duff wheels, in my case a pair of WTB Ci31 rims which were built up by a local shop. When I picked them up I mentioned the spoke tension seemed low. The shop replied that it was deliberate to counteract the high stiffness of the rims, the rear promptly detensioned completely on the chilterns winter event. The front is going bad too, just discovered a loose spoke in the front.

At the moment I’m not sure if carbon rims are more difficult to build or they are just substandard builders.

My previous guy built rock solid wheels which lasted forever, top tip find someone good, be nice to them, use the local shop with staff who can actually do the job.

My local shop closed, the new shop is far trendier with lots of shiny stuff but they couldn’t find their arse with both hands

[Steezysix]

All this makes me feel better about the wheels I built up that have a 2mm(ish) wobble that I haven't done anything about.

[Alh14]

Thanks for the replies, that’s what I love about this forum, depth of knowledge and happy to help new guys.

Will have a look at the tyres but have removed both to run tubeless.

[ianfitz]

For anyone nearby (or happy to use mail order) I can recommend Big Mat at 18 bikes.

I have a few sets of wheels from him. Including a pair of 35mm carbon rims that have covered c30,000km of mainly offroad abuse. They have been checked but have never needed any adjusting since the day they left his stand.

the spoke stressing and lateral force he puts through wheels to ensure they are correctly tensioned is such that he had surgery due to carpel-tunnel syndrome!

[rich.mike]

For anyone nearby (or happy to use mail order) I can recommend Big Mat at 18 bikes.

I have a few sets of wheels from him. Including a pair of 35mm carbon rims that have covered c30,000km of mainly offroad abuse. They have been checked but have never needed any adjusting since the day they left his stand.

the spoke stressing and lateral force he puts through wheels to ensure they are correctly tensioned is such that he had surgery due to carpel-tunnel syndrome!

100% agree! On your recommendation I had some touring wheels built up from 18bikes, they took an absolute beating in Patagonia, 50kg of bike and kit and 70kg of me on horrendously washboarded roads for 1800km and they're still perfectly true.

[redefined_cycles]

For anyone nearby (or happy to use mail order) I can recommend Big Mat at 18 bikes.

I have a few sets of wheels from him. Including a pair of 35mm carbon rims that have covered c30,000km of mainly offroad abuse. They have been checked but have never needed any adjusting since the day they left his stand.

the spoke stressing and lateral force he puts through wheels to ensure they are correctly tensioned is such that he had surgery due to carpel-tunnel syndrome!

Thats a terribly good rear hub youve built into there. I assume it'd be a Chris King or was it a Hope or summat else?? (Well done 18Bikes...).

The story that some wheelbuiders give customers that they will retrue after half a year or whatever, its a load of rubbish. A good wheel doesnt need retensioning randomly...

[fatbikephil]

I wrecked a scraper due to amateurish spoke tensioning - cracks appeared around all the drive side spoke holes. I built up the replacement with a tensionometer and took ages over it (it runs totally true). So given Evans pish talking I'd defo take them to an expert to true and tension properly as a replacement will be £65 +.

[ianfitz]

For anyone nearby (or happy to use mail order) I can recommend Big Mat at 18 bikes.

I have a few sets of wheels from him. Including a pair of 35mm carbon rims that have covered c30,000km of mainly offroad abuse. They have been checked but have never needed any adjusting since the day they left his stand.

the spoke stressing and lateral force he puts through wheels to ensure they are correctly tensioned is such that he had surgery due to carpel-tunnel syndrome!

Thats a terribly good rear hub youve built into there. I assume it'd be a Chris King or was it a Hope or summat else?? (Well done 18Bikes...).

The story that some wheelbuiders give customers that they will retrue after half a year or whatever, its a load of rubbish. A good wheel doesnt need retensioning randomly...

DT 240 rear. Which may have had freehub bearings tbh but obviously no wheel build issues.

That’s a good point about “ride them a few times then bring them back for retensioning” - no that’s just lazy building. If anyone ever says that to you about custom wheels then walk away (or ask for your money back)

[whitestone]

TBH, it's not that hard to get the tensioning right. I followed Roger Musson's book. It's basically a recipe - follow it and you'll have a decent wheel. The skill comes in being able to do it quickly and reliably and that only really comes with doing lots - the same as any physical skill. There's no way I'd make a living from it, I'm just too slow

[sean_iow]

Bob has hit the nail on the head. Building reliable true wheels is not difficult. I've built all mine using the Musson book and had no issues. The rear wheel on my MTB has done 4000 miles, 1600 of them with the bike loaded, and I've never had to touch it since it was finished. But, I took my time and as it was only the 3rd wheel I'd ever built it took me probably 3 or 4 hours.

Most shops can't spend this amount of time at what they charge to build a wheel. If their builder can't build a good wheel in the time available you end up with what ever they can manage to cobble together in the time. For me the bit that takes up the time is taking the twist out of each spoke and moving the tape 'flag' to the next spoke (get the book if you don't know what this is) but this ensures that when ridden there is no loss of tension in the spokes. I've never seen this done in the LBS when they are truing a wheel.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Practice as Bob says - I've sat and watched Fred Salmon build wheels. He's chatting away, his eyes never really looking at the wheel or what he's doing. Years of experience have made the process largely automatic and within 10 minutes, there's a lovely wheel built, ready to go.

[whitestone]

Practice as Bob says - I've sat and watched Fred Salmon build wheels. He's chatting away, his eyes never really looking at the wheel or what he's doing. Years of experience have made the process largely automatic and within 10 minutes, there's a lovely wheel built, ready to go.

One physical skill that I've been able to do almost all my life (and there's a clue) is building dry stone walls. I began when I was about 3 helping my dad on the farm, just putting the little stones in the middle. There's very little conscious thought: there's a space and I just seem able to pick the right stone out of a pile of what looks like, and probably actually is, a random heap of, well, stones and with a turn and a flip it fits the gap. Cath says it's fascinating to just sit and watch me walling but has no idea how I do it and to be honest neither do I.