Bike Fit

[Ian]

Just checking in on this thread again, after about 3 weeks of riding with a new cleat position. Today I rode a loop in the Beacons that ranks as probably the hardest you could ever do for the distance. 104 miles, 4,000m of ascent, some hike a bike and proper knarly rocky trails, singletrack, the lot. I had a shorter variation of this loop that was "only" 130km, and my success rate for finishing it on several attempts was about 50/50.

I got up at 4:30am, was on the bike by 5:15am. By 9:30am I'd done 60km and 1500m of ascent. I felt totally fresh. Sure, there were some climbs I pushed - single speeding is like that round here - but whenever I jumped back on the bike I was straight on the power with no problems or effects from any calf tightness.

At 80km (half way) I still felt good, though it was getting hot now at 11am. At 100km I was at the top of the Gap which turned out to be a bit of a struggle. The next 20km were a bit rough I think due to lack of fluid and insufficient food. I picked up a bottle of pop and wedge of bara brith at a cafe and this kept me going to the end, to the extent that I pulled off a KOM with 140km in my legs (having tried unsuccessfully to get it before on shorter rides).

Now 4 hours after the ride, I've eaten most of the food in the house but my legs feel great

Thinking about why moving your cleats back work relates to which muscles do what when you pedal. The ankle is an inherently unstable joint. It needs tendons and your calf muscle to prevent it folding up under your weight. The knee on the other hand is an inherently stable joint that doesn't use muscles to keep it straight in a standing position. This is why your calves ache and not your quads/ham strings when you've been standing for a long time.

So, with the cleat under your ball of your foot - the traditional position - the calf has to work quite hard to counter the effects of you pushing down with your quad. The harder you push, the more your ankle will want to deflect and the tighter the calf needs to be to prevent it. The two muscles work against each other. Moving the cleat back - in my case by15mm - means that the length of the lever (i.e. Your foot, as measured by the distance between the cleat and ankle) is shorter so the calves don't have to work quite so hard to support the ankle when you apply force with the quad. That means for the same force applied by your quad you go faster and because it is more efficient and because you're using the calf muscle less causes lass fatigue. The latter is evidenced by the fact you can get straight off a hike-a-bike section and onto the bike and pedal off even if your calves are screaming at you (I did just this several times today). The former is evidenced by the string of KOM's and PR's I've picked up over the last three weeks.

If you haven't looked hard at your cleat position yet, what are you waiting for? Seriously. It will transform your ride. There's no way I'll be going back to the traditional position now, that's for sure.

Here's a link to the ride, which some of those on here have seen already - thanks for the kudos!

http://www.strava.com/activities/168526869

[slarge]

So how far back are you talking for the cleats? Is it the rearmost adjustment point in the shoe or are you making new holes and moving the cleats even further back?

Any chance you can ping me the gps of today's ride? Looks like a great loop for a day out. Kudos!

[Ian]

Here's a link to a pic showing the position.
http://instagram.com/p/qLsEkLvE_t/
Looks a bit wrong, feels odd for about the first 20 mins, then you don't notice it.

I'm still adjusting the position on my other shoes (http://instagram.com/p/p6nEBwvE91/) which appear to have more rearward adjustment and I have them set a bit too far back for my liking currently.

I'll email a GPX later tomorrow when I'm back in front of the right computer.

[mountainbaker]

Great results Ian. Pretty much same results for me, it's about 3/4 weeks since my bike fit. I've just done 290 odd miles in 3 days over the weekend on the road bike, but loaded with water, framebag and seatpack, down to Falmouth and back, legs aren't feeling too bad at all. They feel more like a hundred miles than 300!!

[Richpips]

My thoughts are.

Cleats move them as far back as you can. I reckon though, the optimum place for a cleat is much nearer the heel of our feet than we'll currently achieve with the range of cleat positioning.
If you built a machine to pedal a bicycle with a leg (as is) you wouldn't have a foot, you'd have just an ankle.

Saddle position is a compromise on a mountain bike. If you want power and thereore speed then go for a foreward position. The problems are though, a) you'll not have traction on loose stuff, and when you head downhill you'll head over the bars. Back in the day I remember a guy who could fly up hills, and was fast on the flat, downhill on the smallest drop he always crashed. Geometry then, was more like a racing road bike.

What works for me is a flat foot at the bottom of the pedal stroke. For years I'd gone with the roadie thing of heel slightly dropped. Thankfully my knees aren't permanently knackered.

Saddle position is always for handling rather than power.

[Ian]

What works for me is a flat foot at the bottom of the pedal stroke. For years I'd gone with the roadie thing of heel slightly dropped. Thankfully my knees aren't permanently knackered.

Saddle position is always for handling rather than power.

I found myself naturally pedalling with a flat foot more with the cleat set back.

While my saddle has dropped 8mm and has effectively moved forward slightly, I've not noticed any loss of traction as I sit "in" the bike a bit more and feel I have a bit more control over it

[Bearbonesnorm]

Thinking about why moving your cleats back work relates to which muscles do what when you pedal. The ankle is an inherently unstable joint. It needs tendons and your calf muscle to prevent it folding up under your weight. The knee on the other hand is an inherently stable joint that doesn't use muscles to keep it straight in a standing position. This is why your calves ache and not your quads/ham strings when you've been standing for a long time.

This is usually the reason people 'lose a foot' on flat pedals. If you get them to place the centre of their foot over the pedal axle rather than the ball of their foot, their ankle becomes much more stable ... this inturn prevents the foot 'sliding' off the back of the pedal on rough ground. You can spend all the money in the world on fancy shoes and pedals but if your foot's not in the right position it really won't make much diffrence.

Saddle position is a compromise on a mountain bike. If you want power and thereore speed then go for a foreward position. The problems are though, a) you'll not have traction on loose stuff, and when you head downhill you'll head over the bars. Back in the day I remember a guy who could fly up hills, and was fast on the flat, downhill on the smallest drop he always crashed. Geometry then, was more like a racing road bike.

I really can't see that a foreward saddle position will make you anymore likely to go OTB ... you should be stood up and clear of the saddle, so the position of the saddle should have no bearing on where your weight is fore and aft. If you're one of those riders who grips the saddle between their thighs - don't, in reality you might as well be sat down as the effects are the same. When descending you have 4 contact points ... hands and feet with your feet being the most important.

[Zippy]

I'm reading this with great interest, going to do a bit more reading on the subject myself too. A couple of years ago I took lots of measurements of me, my bike setup and did some cleat re-positioning. I tthink I might revisit this, I know someone who er did a lot of cleat re-positioning and cycling is his life including the degree he took etc, so I'm going to consult him too

With reference to what muscles are being used, what Ian said makes total sense, and also falls in line with the bit of blurb I read on my first set of clipless shoes that said along the lines of "cleats towards the back for more comfort/longer distance, cleats further forwards for more power" which makes sense in terms of leverage. This brought me onto looking at muscles used etc. and I've skim read this:

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Which-Musc ... -2012.html

I also found some interesting things on my anatomy when I experimented a bit. I appear to have a relatively flexi heel and ride "heel up" a bit. When I tried to be a bit more normal, it hurt my knees, quite badly in fact. Having my saddle up a bit more than recommended works well and the heel flex bit appears to normalise my joint movements and accommodate if I've messed up saddle height a bit.

More reading required, will experiment a bit when I get a chance.

[jameso]

Interesting stuff. Ian, and others, when you ride on road are you a 'supplese' type of pedaller? Or more of a SS-habit power-masher?

I ask as the levers thing is a good example and undeniable mechanically, I think about my pedalling and I use my calves to extend my pedal stroke so my knee moves a little less. Spread the work among more muscles perhaps. I slid my cleats back a bit for a MTB (SS) ride last week and felt that I was doing more from the knee, not a bad thing, just different. Strong in some ways, more 'clumsy' in others? It felt good to go back to normal position for the weekend's road miles, smoother, at the same time in the first dozen or so miles I did feel that I noticed the work my weaker ankle/calf muscle was having to do.
I'd say I'm a poor pedaller, my cadence is lower than some say is ideal and I habitually push against the gear, strength that always fades on long rides. The cleat-back thing made me feel more inclined to mash, rather than spin smoother circles as I believe I should do more, hence my Q.

[Zippy]

. Spread the work among more muscles perhaps.

Good point, perhaps a bit of triathlete based research also required, as they have to spread the muscle groups about a bit due to the different disciplines side by side. Apart from not being able to ride a bike very well, they ride differently as using different muscle groups - or I thought I hear that.

[Alpinum]

Truly good stuff.
Only until you realise, that you're already in such a position and you'll not gain anything from a different one. Damnit. No spontaneous increase in performance, ease whatsoever.

[Ian]

James; I do that "supplese" thing a bit. I can still spin 32:19 on the flat at the same speed I could before, and I do draw the lower foot through the bottom of the pedal stroke. However the technique is slightly different to before and uses muscles differently in the process, but with less movement of the ankle. Didn't really find fading leg strength until about 150km.

Truly good stuff.
Only until you realise, that you're already in such a position and you'll not gain anything from a different one. Damnit. No spontaneous increase in performance, ease whatsoever.

Watching you pick your way up the really techy climb after Capel Curig and then on every other occasion watch you float down the descents and into the distance, I would trade some of my fitness for your bike handling skill

[jameso]

Only until you realise, that you're already in such a position and you'll not gain anything from a different one. Damnit. No spontaneous increase in performance, ease whatsoever.

A very valid point.

I popped the cleats back again for a road ride today(I ride with the same shoes on all my bikes). Had 90 mins easy riding to think about this one and see how I felt. I do a fair bit of of this with my work, ie build up a new frame or try some new wheel parts, see how I feel on it, analyze whether what I feel is really there or simply perceived, is perception as good as a real effect, etc. Go to and fro between test and control bike. Get used to one, go back to the starter point, note impressions. etc. About as scientific as I can be with something so variable, no power meter etc
So what I thought I felt on the ride today needs more time and experience before I'll make a claim on how I feel about it, but there may well be something in it. Alpinum's spot on though, there's always a gain to be had if what you had before was sub-optimum - my cleats may simply have been badly positioned in combination with my bike and crank length. Few of us are on 100% optimised set-ups and we adapt to a range of kit more than I think most of us would expect, my interest here is that cleat position jumps out at me as one of the obvious areas of bike ergonomics I've simply never experimented with .. sounds daft now I realise it. It may affect comfort as well as/aside from efficiency ie if I slide my cleats back, my saddle can be lower or cranks can be shorter. That's good even if it produces no more power, as my saddle to bar drop is now less without raising my bars, or knee stress may be lowered.

I do believe that 'new kit buzz' is responsible for a lot of performance increases, but it may not the kit that causes it, more our own reactions to something new. It forces a different interaction that can introduce new reactions, effects etc and that may inspire us out of a set pattern - so here, a different feel in an area unchanged for a long time can force the body to adapt and produce a perceived gain in efficiency etc. In time though I think we settle back into our normal patterns, abilities etc. So if there's a gain to be had by some in this area, whether it's a gain we'll see long term I'm not so sure - doubtful tbh. But if you've been labouring against a poorer set-up for years and one change adds a few watts or lowers your HR in a given gear/hill, all good. How do we keep that advantage? Go back to sub-optimal kit for training? Dunno .. one for the physiologists!

Oh, and I noted that my change in cleat position is 13-15mm, the same as Ians, having just seen the pic link he posted. 10 miles of feeling odd, then felt quite normal if still a little different after ~25 miles.

[Alpinum]

Few of us are on 100% optimised set-ups and we adapt to a range of kit more than I think most of us would expect, my interest here is that cleat position jumps out at me as one of the obvious areas of bike ergonomics I've simply never experimented with .. sounds daft now I realise it. It may affect comfort as well as/aside from efficiency ie if I slide my cleats back, my saddle can be lower or cranks can be shorter. That's good even if it produces no more power, as my saddle to bar drop is now less without raising my bars, or knee stress may be lowered.

That's it. It's about all contact points. If I change bar height, I need to adjust the angle of my saddle, may it be only 1 °. Grips, bar, stem, saddle, seat post, pedals, cranks they all build around the fundament of the frame.

But if you've been labouring against a poorer set-up for years and one change adds a few watts or lowers your HR in a given gear/hill, all good. How do we keep that advantage? Go back to sub-optimal kit for training? Dunno .. one for the physiologists!

Oh, and I noted that my change in cleat position is 13-15mm, the same as Ians, having just seen the pic link he posted. 10 miles of feeling odd, then felt quite normal if still a little different after ~25 miles.

I readjust saddle height umpteen times a day, mostly due to more freedom on the descents, but often just to loosen up a bit. Perhaps a placebo effect kicks in after fiddling with the QR seat collar and then puts you on the edge...
But I imagine that a different thing on the road bike - all being much more static.

[Ian]

Some good points there James.

I admit I was inspired by the concept, and though I'd read about it a few years ago, have never felt compelled to put it into action. The first ride or two are perhaps skewed toward my wanting it to work, so you try harder and get a better result and attribute the success to the change in position rather than extra effort.

However, I had reserved judgement until after Sunday's ride. Over that kind of distance/ climbing there is nowhere to hide (as is also the case with Gabes 300 miles on the road bike) and any bio mechanical inefficiencies associated with the change or subconscious increased effort would be exposed fairly quickly.

You are correct though that I may have been riding with an imperfect set up before and, as Alpinum points out, it does not stand to reason that a similarly bad setup applies to everyone.

[ZeroDarkBivi]

I have totally bought into the rear cleat position for some time, based on recommends from some well regarded US cycling gurus, but, having come from a triathlon background, I am less convinced by the rear saddle positioning; this closes the 'hip angle', potentially fatiguing the legs for the run (or hike-a-bike); there is loads of stuff on this and tri bike fit on slowtwitch.com if you feel the need… Not sure how relevant this is to endurance MTB, as the riding position is quite different, but forward saddle has always felt more comfortable for me. The UCI clearly think there is some advantage, and limit the forward positioning of saddles on road bikes.

[Wotsits]

I've also been using the rear cleat position for a while now, agree that it takes a little getting used to & to me the handling didn't feel quite as 'agile' at first, although there does seem to be better power transfer.
I don't do the mileage of some of you, so for me the advantages over longer distances will be less pronounced.

Apologies if this has been posted before but i found this to be quite good reading-
http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bik ... -position/

[jameso]

Ian, however your set up before suited you or not, a ride like that says something. Nowhere to hide as you say. Look forward to getting a decent road ride on this set up next weekend to compare to that last 2 weekends, you don't gain or lose that much over a week so I'd assume it was set-up related in your case too?

[ericrobo]

Following this discussion with great interest, but can someone (Ian ?) clear up one thing:
When you move the cleats back 13-15mm are you drilling a further/extended hole in your shoe ? Or just going as far back as the shoe allows ?

On my shoes I've moved the cleats back as far as they will go, but reckon they could be even further back...

The question is do you want the cleats under the ball of the foot - call it position 1
or
under the arch of the foot - pos 2
or (ridiculous) under the heel - pos 3 ?

or is it somewhere between 1 and 2 ?

[mountainbaker]

The current thinking in bike-fit circles is that for road/normal distance stuff, the cleat should be around half way between the bump on the 1st and 5th metatarsal (see below), though ultra distance riders (RAAM etc) and Triathletes are trying mid-foot, which is just that, right in the middle of the foot.


Personally, I went to the far back of standard cleat rails, which was around 15-18mm back from where I'd had them before. I suppose I could drill holes, but I'm pretty happy with how it feels right now. I'd suggest trying that first, before drilling your shoes.

[composite]

Not much to add in terms of changing position but I have always used the rear of the 2 mounting points. First time I tired SPDs I tried the front and it made my feet/legs hurt so tried the back one and they didn't hurt.

I have always had that rear one 2-3mm from the furthest back position but I have tried changing it on one pair of shoes just to see. Not sure it's enough to notice any difference really. I have been considering drilling though to see if it's a help.

[Pyro]

Could be one to try for tonight's ride out. Not a long one but on a regular loop so could give a comparison of sorts.

One factor I'd be worried about on the CX bike is toe overlap, though. I already get the odd 'buzz' on tighter corners, moving my cleats back would make that quite a lot worse. That said, I've two pairs of riding shoes, so could have specific shoes for specific bikes...



...Now I feel like a right bike tart...

[slarge]

Ericrobo,
I asked Ian the same question. The photos he linked to show the new cleat position at the back of the existing fitting holes. No drilling required.

I will only be able to move about 8-10mm, so am thinking there's no new KOMs for me!

[Ian]

Yes, just to clear up the position on my shoes - no drilling undertaken. Just used the rear holes as far back as they would go in the existing slots.

However, on my Pearl Izumi's, the slots go back further than the they do on the Shimano ones, and adopting the same strategy of going back as far as I could, it doesn't feel so comfy. So, the mid-sole position Gabe talks of for RAAM competitors and the like is possibly suited more to road shoes that are stiff as a board, whereas the Pearl's are not.

Don't forget that if moving your cleats, look at your saddle height too. I followed the recommendation earlier in this thread of dropping it a lot and then putting it up in 2mm increments until it felt too high, then dropping it 2mm again.

[Pyro]

My little experiment was a partial success. It turns out the cleats on my (older) spare shoes were in the 'behind ball of foot' position anyway. It definitely felt odd for most of the ride, like it was a little too far back, but I'll have to compare with my other set of shoes another time to see if there's a noted difference in my climbing pace etc.

The other reason it was only a partial success is that it turns out my spare shoe cleats are really, really badly worn, so I spent half the ride unclipping inadvertently.